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From Nikos Minadakis <minad...@ics.forth.gr>
Subject Re: Taverna Player provenance
Date Tue, 02 Dec 2014 09:45:48 GMT
Hello Alan,

thank you for your answer.

Regarding the versions question, Stian mentioned that Biovels portal is 
not using the version of Taverna Server that allows capturing/export of 
provenance but is planning that upgrade soon. So, I am asking if there 
is a time-plan for this. Same for the capturing of who is doing which 
interaction.

So, I will wait for Stians classifications for the rest of the answers.

Thank you again for your response.

Best Wishes,

Nikos

On 2014-12-01 18:08, alaninmcr wrote:
> On 01/12/2014 15:43, Nikos Minadakis wrote:
>> Hello Stian and Everyone,
>>
>> sorry for the delay of my answer but I just found out than I had to 
>> send
>> this email :P
>>
>> So, my main questions as you already mentioned are the following:
>>
>> 1) Can we track the provenance of data by using Taverna?
>>
>> You already answered to this and added that:
>> - Portal is not capturing who is doing which interaction so if the 
>> run
>> is shared with multiple people that might be something
>> additional to add.
>
> Interesting idea. The additional information could be fed back on the
> ATOM feed and then saved by the interaction service.
>
> This requires thought as workflow runs and their interactions will
> not always be done from a portal. In addition to running directly 
> from
> the Taverna Workbench, they could be called from IPython Notebook for
> example.
>
>> -I checked, and the BioVel Portal is not yet using the version of
>> Taverna Server that allows capturing/export of Provenance (2.5.4) -
>> but is planning that upgrade soon.
>
> Rob tells me that the portal is running with the 2.5.4 server. The
> provenance may not be exposed in the UI though.
>
>> So, this is fine by me and I would like to ask you if it is possible 
>> to
>> be more specific for the versions that will support such 
>> functionalities.
>
> I'm not quite sure what you are asking.
>
>> 2) Can I use my own provenance Schema in case I don't want to use
>> PROV-O? (CRM digital is an example, and we are using it in FORTH)
>
> I doubt that would be possible. Stian can give a more precise answer.
>
>> 3) To be more specific with my requirements.
>> I want to use taverna in order to implement a complex scientific
>> workflow that supports interactions from different Actors and 
>> Institutions.
>>
>> So lets consider that that the workflow consists of 3 steps A-B-C 
>> (in
>> real life they are much more) and 2 Institutions will interact. In1 
>> and In3
>>
>> In1 will start with step A. When this step finishes In2 will be 
>> informed
>> automatically and will continue with Step B. When step B is finished 
>> In1
>> will be automatically informed in order to continue with step C and
>> finish the workflow. Now imagine this carried out by 20 institutions 
>> and
>> hundreds of steps.
>>
>> As a result we should be able to know who did what and when. Not 
>> only
>> for the concrete steps but even for the actions that are done 
>> internally
>> in each institution (data provenance, runs, etc etc). And cause of 
>> the
>> specializations of the actions PROV-O may not be enough for tracking
>> such provenance, so another schema may be used for it.
>
> Additional information could probably be annotated. Stian can give
> more details of that.
>
>> Off course it would be great as a final goal to be able to go back. 
>> So,
>> to start from the final product of the execution and by following 
>> the
>> provenance information to be able to do as many steps back as needed 
>> and
>> to extract the previous results.
>>
>> My final questions is: Is Taverna capable of fulfilling such a
>> requirement? And of course if not, to what degree does it support 
>> it,
>> and what effort does it need to be extended?
>
> The interactions do not currently capture "who did it" - so that
> would not be possible at the moment.
>
> With regard to going upstream and looking at the preceding results,
> that is currently possible. That is how Taverna shows the 
> intermediate
> results. It may require SPARQL queries to obtain the information you
> want. Do you have examples?
>
>> If I could have an answer by the end of this week it would be great
>> since I will report it in a new project's meeting next week.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Nikos
>
> Alan


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