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From Howard Lewis Ship <hls...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: I know you cant be bothered, but if you can it really would be gracious
Date Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:03:09 GMT
That was not supposed to go to the dev list!


On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hlship@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is the oddest mail I've gotten recently. In between the general
> crankiness (bordering on racism) he's very unhappy about some 3rd party T5
> libs.  Is there anything to that?
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *...*
> Date: Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 11:19 AM
> Subject: RE: I know you cant be bothered, but if you can it really would
> be gracious
> To: Howard Lewis Ship <hlship@gmail.com>
>
>
> Thanks for the KIND response Howard.
>
> I am sh&$%canning tynamo due to their lack of response which has
> transcended years of open source abuse.
>
> Which in turn leaves me to depart from tapestry 5 painfully because I like
> your framework and what it gives.
>
> I committed to the tynamo guys and waited and waited and I have no idea
> how their link is on your project page as an extension. Does anyone regard
> that a developer somewhere is assuming this is commercially ripe and ready
> to use ? Its a ditch. And I will stop there because I will get myself in
> trouble if i continue characterizations of what the state of the code is
> and how its able to function... it purely doesnt and been mismanaged for
> too long by the wrong egotistical developers sought for total self gain and
> mislead talented folks down a dead end. Its obvious they just quit.
>
> I encourage you to depart from tynamo.
>
> This type of alternative is where I will restart
>
> http://carminecarella.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/accounts-manager-a-sample-web-application-with-twitter-bootstrap-backbone-js-restful-j2ee-and-jpa/
>
> One of my gigs years back was at Raytheon and I wrote my own mini
> hibernate by scratch and my own CRUD interfaces and default set of web
> pages. It was highly admired as a cookie cutter for 400 web apps for the
> patriot missile logistics management project.
>
> I regret trusting open source coders and depending on their delivery for
> commercial frameworks.
>
> Its a shame but this kind of feedback whereby a developer is actually
> canning and leaving might be a trend.
>
> Its a shame and I wish the open source was regulated by standards and
> disciplines that make software development possible.
>
> The handful or the few that have done something just does not impress me .
>
> Whether tapestry5 lives or dies, does not matter to me anymore. I
> privileged the framework by giving it my heart and trusted those few who
> made the difference and somehow maintain their place. If I find tapestry is
> useful as a complete front end maybe but for now I am bailing.
> Sorry to intrude.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:05:47 -0700
> Subject: Re: I know you cant be bothered, but if you can it really would
> be gracious
> From: hlship@gmail.com
>
>
>
> I'm not sure how to respond. You seem to be very angry about various
> things.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 5:17 AM, *...* wrote:
>
>  Hi Howard,
>
> I committed to specific frameworks so one day I wold write a web site so
> users could do something productive some day.
>
> But I find myself sitting here 2014 sick to my stomach that I cannot even
> checkout tynamo. perform a clean build and model a website using the 15+
> years of java
>
> Or that I cannot even post a pet ad on http://pets.oodle.com because some
> indian(s) have taken over the marketplace and wrapped EBAY and consumed
> every search criteria to be THEIR's and controlling every users attempt to
> do something mandating the users operate under their dictatorship without
> any other authority.
>
>
> I don't think I understand this. It doesn't look like pets.oodle.com is
> written in Tapestry.
>
> Yes it is annoying that some people (not necessarily Indian nationals)
> have found ways to game various systems on the Internet. Just as many eyes
> make bugs shallow, many eyes also make exploits visible. Our job is often
> to see deeper than others, and prevent these negative uses of the software
> we create.
>
> That being said, if the Taliban, or the Westboro Baptist Church, or
> Monsanto used Tapestry to build their site, even to say or do horrible
> things, that is part of the price we pay to enable so many others to create
> positive works.
>
>
>
> I have seen the internet taken over and being abused.
>
> I committed to tynamo since 2006 and its really gone nowhere and a toy yet
> it has been promoted and put on your framework as a viable option when it
> isnt and the two foreigners operating that turf there are done the same
> thing the foreigners at http://pets.oodle.com do... they abuse their
> role, authority, content and dictatorship and nothing is open/free or
> delivered. The only thing thats occurred is its controlled by a handful of
> idiots that got no business controlling that problem domain and they cant
> even deliver on their valed masquerade of who they are, what they are
> doing, what they promise to their users.
>
>
> The only authority they have is that granted to them, by consensus, by the
> community.
>
>
>
> As a result, nothing gets done. And all intent of this user ME is tossed
> into the rubbush including my credentials. Maybe I am just a waste.
>
> I have never been able to model java annotations the way I dreamed. its
> never happened becausze I committed to the frameworks and the authorities
> promoting them claiming they are the best thing since sliced bread. I do
> wonder why you would put tynamo on your website as a viable option when
> they are holding that thing down with intentional build problems preventing
> anyone from successfully checking it out, building clean, running and
> modeling a website. I have bitched and moaned over the years having come
> from the MIT Xwindows day when everything worked and we cold trust american
> engineering.
>
>
> I doubt the problems are intentional. We are all faced with the task of
> balancing our work with our open source contributions.  Do you think
> Tapestry 5.4 would take this long if I could work on it 100% time?
>
> There has been an invasion of nasty insects that have literally ruined
> engineering and open source. Open source is closed source. The pundits are
> running the show and speak at all the conferences with impunity.
>
>
> The correct reaction to poor open source is to move elsewhere, or even
> create a competitor.  I think the GitHub model is better in many ways than
> the Apache model, in that it is easier, even encouraged, to fork and
> improve (and then send a push request back). On the other hand, you see
> much more abandonware on GitHub than in Apache projects.
>
>
>
> I am not just some idiot that cannot write code. If it could have been
> done it owld already have. There are serious show stopping forces of
> intentional incompetence that thrive in the current release of binaries
> that make modeling open source software physically impossible.
>
>
> I wouldn't throw the word "intentional" around. I strongly doubt anyone is
> breaking the build, or writing bad code, just to spite you (or anyone
> else). Again, it comes down to time and, in some cases, talent. Not
> maliciousness.
>
>
>
>
> Why am I writing to you ? Because I see a serious problem that remains
> unresolved. Third world poverty is running the show and its seriously
> abusive. The argument ocld be made to invalidate me but in all reality my
> argument is valid and my claims backed by dysfunction andf failure of open
> source.
>
>
> I do not accept any of your basic premises.
>
>
>
> Why does it have to be only a handful make it thru.
>
> I am not sure the open source authority you currently own is about to try
> and change things either. It would be nice. To slam some of these
> interceptors of American technology, who abuse americans and spit in our
> faces with disrespect... and build them OFF the turf where they belong
> because they have no right to be oiperating the turf when they have
> intentionally failed to deliver anything.
>
> taking tynamo off your website as a supported option would be a start.
> Alejandro and Kalle are dirtbags. They cant release anything. They never
> did and years will pass and they never will release anything that can be
> checked out, built and run and used to model websites in any normal
> functional reliable expected capacity.
>
>
> It's not just "my" web site, Tapestry is a group effort. A discussion
> about whether Tynamo is viable and should be listed on the Tapestry wiki is
> not something to be done in private by me. Take your concerns, more
> respectfully, to the Tapestry developer list.
>
>
> as for webnsites thast make common living impossible... like
> http://pets.oodle.com whereby I cannot even post an ad to sella pet due
> to their websites MySQL errors, their lack of support or care for that
> matter and ignorance? There are tons of these out there. And the internet
> ruins because of incompetent hotshots trying to steal the turf and claim
> ownership.
>
>
> There is endless competition for even the most mundane web sites; find an
> alternative that works for it. Blog about it, direct traffic to it.
>
>
>
> I would like to know if open source will ever be predictably brought back
> under control by us again? Maybe it never was under control and never will
> be.
>
> I just am sick over the fact that I look at myself and see I am absolutely
> useless... when I could be modeling the real world in one fashion or
> another to make the world a better place and it has been open source that
> has prevented me fro doing so.
>
>
> Open source has not prevented you from doing anything. You have chosen
> certain tools (Tynamo, apparently) that don't meet your expectations.
>  Well, I daily use any number of tools that don't meet mine. I either find
> new ones I like more, or I write my own. None of this is rocket science, it
> is just engineering discipline.
>
>
>
> It isnt that difficult. And it shouldnt have to be this difficult. But it
> is. And its impossible. And I see the internet becoming worse as more
> control is acquired by the wrong forces making everything impossible.
>
> I woudl like to revisit tapestry and tynamo to model some websites but I
> am discouraged.
>
> Do you have any suggestions for me to remain independent of bad influences
> on technology (as kalle and alejandro have been historically for years) ...
> about any good independxcent frameworks to use to model websites with? All
> I wanted was to focus on business logic. But it seems I need to write my
> own framework in order to do so. I did that once for raytheon... my own
> mini hibernate and set of crud pages.
>
>
> Again, I have problems with your basic premise. There is an amazing wealth
> of technology out there, and quite a bit that is both innovative, easy to
> use, well supported, and well documented. You may want to look beyond Java.
> You may want to rethink your ideas of how to "model websites". I'm
> personally excited by Clojure, ReactJS, and AngularJS.
>
> I have been in a similar situation to yours recently. I was using a
> Clojure database tool named Korma. It made certain things easy, but had
> some odd dependencies, and limited documentation, and very little developer
> community. Eventually I hit a brick wall ... I couldn't get it to do quite
> what I wanted and couldn't get any support. Fortunately, I had a good test
> suite, and I found a different and simpler tool, HoneySQL, and quickly
> shifted my code over. It was painful to backtrack, but now my code is
> simpler and easier to understand. No amount of angry missives would have
> helped.
>
>
>
> I have just about given up.
>
> If you got any new ideas about what to use to model websites with today I
> would appreciate that.
>
>
> I think you should start here,
> http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy, to change your
> thinking about the right way to build software. I think you'll find that a
> lot of technologies, even including Tapestry, are a bit "complected" (a
> term explained in the video).
>
>
>
>


-- 
Howard M. Lewis Ship

Creator of Apache Tapestry

The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!

(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com
@hlship

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