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From Jonathan Revusky <>
Subject Re: friday ha ha
Date Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:09:49 GMT
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 4/18/06, Phil Zoio <> wrote:
>>I'd be happy to pass Strecks on to Struts itself if the community really
>>wanted it, but I don't see that as essential to its existence in any way.
> What we look for is a community forming around the codebase. We don't
> just want code, we want people who are committed to maintaining the
> code over the long term.

Yes, but if that is the case, doesn't that mean that you have failed 
utterly and abysmally? After all, we have a situation in which the 
Struts 1.x codebase is basically being abandoned and you are bringing in 
a codebase that was, heretofore, that of a competing project.

So what is this about your "commitment to maintaining the code over the 
long term"?

> Not just one person, but a community of 
> "likely suspects" who will step and and volunteer if the creator of
> the code loses interest.

Doesn't all this beg the question completely? If you and your 
collaborators are not interested in developing the Struts 1.x codebase 
any further, and Phil and maybe others are, why should you not just let 
them come in and do what they will?

I mean, as regards Struts 1.x, you are not proposing to do anything with 
it really, right? If other people have a plan for modernizing it and 
making it better, why should you not just open the door and say: "Okay, 
show us what you can do."

What is there to lose? AFAICS, the only alternative you are proposing 
wrt Struts 1.x is simply to abandon it.

> Many extensions that people now consider essential, like Tiles and
> Validator, started as third-party extensions. Whether we want to add
> an extension to the core usually depends on how many people recommend
> the extension on the list -AND- whether the people developing the
> extension follow the user list.
> This is as true for committers as it is for non-committers. Hubert,
> Niall, James Holmes, James Mitchell, Laurie Harper, Don Brown, myself,
> and others, all have extensions to Struts that we have distributed
> separately. Some of these extension were ultimately added to the
> distribution, and others have not been. In the latter case, it's
> usually because the committer chooses not to donate the extension. The
> Struts Action distribution is already quite large, and we are all
> sensitve to "code bloat

Well, whatever... but the set of policies you have followed wrt to the 
ongoing development of Struts 1.x have to be considered an abject 
failure. You have had to accept that this is something that is now 
technically obsolete, and rather than trying to modernize/refactor it 
forward, you have convinced the developers of a competing project to 
donate their code, so that you have something more state of the art to 
offer and to work on.

There is a recurring theme in your discourse, Ted, where you keep 
saying: "We have been doing this, that, and the other thing..." and a 
casual observer would think that you believe that everything you have 
been doing has been wonderfully successful.

Do you really believe that?

It really makes me wonder whether you view certain things through 
special rose-colored glasses.

Jonathan Revusky
lead developer, FreeMarker project,

> In the case of Strecks,  a similar case would the "EL" tags. At first,
> it was a separate subproject, because EL was based on Java 1.3 when we
> had set Java 1.2 as the baseline. For Struts Action 1.3, we moved the
> baseline, and so EL is now integrated into the JSP Tags. The same
> thing could happen here, if a community grows around the codebase, and
> the community wanted to be an Apache Struts subproject. (Not everyone
> does!)
> -Ted.

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