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From Jonathan Revusky <revu...@wanadoo.es>
Subject Re: The Mytical stagnation
Date Sat, 01 Apr 2006 16:04:44 GMT
Asad Habib wrote:
> Do WE think that Dakota has said his fair share and that his ideas are
> STALE? Do WE think that Dakota should stop harassing others on this list?
> Do WE think that too much Dakota talk is bad? Do WE think that Dakota is 
> talking nonsense?

Well, the truth is that it's hard to know what the majority of people 
think. Most of the people who subscribe to a mailing list like this just 
lurk and never say anything.

Of course, the likelihood of them saying anything is further reduced if 
they think they're going to be at the receiving end of insults and 
browbeating and so on if they express an opinion.

Given this basic fact, I think all the WE in caps above is in rather bad 
taste, frankly.

> 
> Yes, indeed, WE do! Paul, I, and lots of others on this list THINK
> exactly this and have expressed this multiple times. I THINK it is
> time for Dakota to stop THINKING. What do you THINK, Dakota, o noble
> master of DO YOU THINK?

Asad, I was wondering what you actually thought of this question. All I 
see looking back on your previous comments is that you think that other 
poeple shouldn't express their opinion or should stop doing so or 
whatever. If that, in and of itself, is an opinion, it's a rather 
negative derivative kind of opinion. Okay, it's sarcastic, but you tell 
Dakota in the above to "stop THINKING". Is it a case of: "I don't have 
an opinion so other people also shouldn't?"

On the other hand, maybe I'm being unfair there. Maybe you actually do 
have an opinion. Now, to me, it seems indisputable that Struts 
development stagnated. It was falling behind other things in its space, 
Webwork being just one prominent example. Bringing in Webwork and 
relabeling it Struts Action 2 or whatever is a clear recognition of that 
stagnation.

So, this naturally does lead to the question: Why did Struts development 
stagnate?

This really should not be a taboo question.

Now, my own concern about this is what happens when a project that, for 
whatever reasons, cannot maintain a significant level of active 
development, absorbs an innovative project, and imposes its development 
practices on them? I mean, things have to be judged by results, and on 
the level of technical results, the Struts project has not been managed 
successfully. (Note that I'm not talking about marketing/visibility here.)

So, I see a real problem here, particularly when the Struts people, for 
the most part, simply won't countenance the possibility (the _glimmer_ 
of a possibility, I almost dare say) that there has been anything wrong 
with their basic approach towards managing the project up until now.

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

> 
> - Asad
> 
> 
> On Fri, 31 Mar 2006, Dakota Jack wrote:
> 
>> Do you think there is any value in letting a situtation which led to the
>> problem go by without lessons learned, Paul?  Do you think just 
>> because the
>> people who coded the hairball are not talking about it we should just 
>> let it
>> drop and believe that they won't do the same thing with WebWorks?  Is 
>> that
>> what you think?  You do seem to get the fact that there is a real,
>> unaddressed problem.  I don't think we need you to tell us when we should
>> stop talking.  If you don't get it, then move on.  Noone is holding your
>> nose to this grindstone.  I am amazed when people are concerned that 
>> others
>> are addressing an issue.  What is with that?  If you are tired of 
>> talking we
>> should stop?  That is a very odd way to think.
>>
>> On 3/29/06, Paul Benedict <paul4christ79@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> This topic has become stale, in my opinion, and I do not understand
>>> why people continue to participate in it. When people attempt to have
>>> a successful discussion, there is usually a goal to attain, but I am
>>> unable to discern what serious goal there is in telling the commiters 
>>> they
>>> are, in so many words, lousy, a failure, makers of bad products, the
>>> fathers of stagnation, betrayers of their foundation, etc. :-)
>>> Discussions can be alot of fun and productive and bear good fruit,
>>> but discussions, like fruit, also wither after a season.... and I think
>>> the season is well underway for all the participants to just accept
>>> that you've been heard, not everyone will agree, and finger-pointing
>>> isn't productive. -- Paul
>>>
>>> --- Al Eridani <al.eridani@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots <bart@cs.nuim.ie> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts
>>>>> guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than
>>>
>>> Struts
>>>
>>>>> 1.X.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be
>>>> bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that
>>>> you have forgotten already.
>>>>
>>>> It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively
>>>
>>> closed
>>>
>>>> environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered
>>>> aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to
>>>> Struts decline.
>>>>
>>>> The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one
>>>> of the defenders of the faith, "the question is invalid".
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> -- 
>> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
>> ~Dakota Jack~
>>


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