struts-user mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Jonathan Revusky <revu...@wanadoo.es>
Subject Re: I Apologize
Date Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:22:29 GMT
Bart Busschots wrote:
> What IS the question? Does anyone actually KNOW anymore?

Oh, people know what the question is. It's just that apparently the 
question is taboo, and rather than answer it, they engage in personal 
attacks. The question is:

"Why did Struts development stagnate?"

You see, what happened is that, though it still has more users because 
of placement and visibility factors, Struts did, in fact, become less 
and less competitive with other things in the same space.

This whole thing has led to a so-called "merger" with one of the more 
prominent competitors, Webwork. The term "merger" is (deliberately) 
misleading actually. Struts Action 2, currently in the Apache incubator, 
*is* Webwork. This means that the Struts developers have recognized that 
the Struts 1.x codebase is obsolete. And, of course, if they themselves 
recognize this, then the premise of the above question, that Struts 
development did in fact stagnate, is not in dispute by anybody.

The problem is that, apparently, this is a taboo question. To create a 
distraction, a lot of people start with a lot of nasty personal attacks. 
And in an amazing twist, people then come in, as Henri Yandell did 
recently, and insinuate that I, one of the people who posed this 
question, was engaging in personal attacks.


> All I know is that the signal to noise ratio on this list has gone 
> totally belly up. 

This is because, rather than address this perfectly legitimate question, 
people start the personal attacks. It is true that if one group of 
people resorts to slinging mud everywhere, everybody ends up with mud 
all over him, and a casual observer cannot distinguish the real 
mud-slingers from anybody else. This is why it can be an effective 
distraction tactic. This is used in political campaigns and so forth.

> There is now more noise than signal. I am a struts 
> user and I find that this list has become a pure annoyance of late 
> rather than being helpful like it used to be. 

I wonder about this, frankly. Posts that have primarily political 
content are very readily identifiable. They would not seem to impose any 
more burden on somebody who is not interested than the many narrow 
technical posts that don't interest you.

The personal attack stuff is really annoying and I can see why you and 
others would want that to stop. But I think you should have a look at 
which faction is doing that and understand why they do it. That's quite 
illuminating.

> This is not helping 
> struts. This kind of conversation should not be on the main users list. 

I'm not so sure of this. I think the discussion is legitimate. The topic 
of a discussion does not absolutely need to be some narrow technical 
point in order to be of interest to Struts users.

Also, note that when you use a product like Struts, most of the narrow 
technical threads that occur are not of interest to one anyway. Only a 
few are.

What I have noticed here and on other ASF groups is that there are a lot 
of people who don't quite understand what open source software is about. 
I mean, they understand that it's free and they like that, but they have 
a mental model of this that there are some hotshot coders who write this 
stuff, they toss it over the fence and then you can go pick it up and 
use it.

The idea that there is a two-way communication process between the 
developers and users is not something they quite grasp. Users who give 
feedback are, to some (admittedly lesser) extent, collaborators as well. 
There are people suggesting -- typically the same people who initiate 
the mudslinging -- that users have no say, and that nobody should be 
listening to mere users.

I think these kinds of attitudes have been a factor that led to the 
stagnation.


> I'm not saying the converstaion shouldn't be had, but I don't need it 
> swamping my mailbox every day for weeks on end.
> 
> If this list doesn't revert to some level of sensability soon I'll just 
> un-subscribe and TBH I very much doubt I'll be the first or the last to go.

Bart, I have just checked one thing, I was curious about it. You have 
written a total of 8 messages on this list. 2 of the 8 messages have 
been dedicated to decrying the existence of this discussion.

Of the remaining 6 posts, I don't see you helping anybody out. The one 
exception *might* be this post.

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/121858

But that is not exactly an extensive record of extending yourself to 
help anybody.

But basically, aside from that one and the two other posts decrying this 
thread, you simply ask some narrow technical question when you need some 
help and some good samaritan helps you. Well, in short, Bart, you seem 
to be one of the many people who takes and gives nothing back. That's 
normal, that's most people in this open source world.

However, to be such a person and then be "threatening" to unsubscribe is 
rather silly, I think.

Anyway, since you asked what the question was, I told you. Do you have 
an opinion? If you have one, you certainly have every right to express it.

Why did Struts development stagnate?

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/


> 
> Enough is enough. This is going no where usefull, just into the land of 
> spam and trolling.
> 
> Bart.
> 
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> 
>> Good god, this seems to be a disease that is catching.  Why don't YOU 
>> answer
>> the question, then, Bart?  It is amazing to watch someone kiss ass and be
>> arrogant at the same time.
>>
>> On 3/28/06, Bart Busschots <bart@cs.nuim.ie> wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> Larry Meadors wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>> LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts?
>>>>
>>>> On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <revusky@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>> Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance
>>>>> to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>
>>>> OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have
>>>> debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only
>>>> say this after a personal attack.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>> And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some 
>>>>> kind
>>>>> of moral equivalence out of this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>
>>>> ...then follow it with another...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>> Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral 
>>>>> relativism
>>>>> and other sophistry in college.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>
>>>> ...and another.
>>>>
>>>> This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from 
>>>> bizzarro
>>>>     
>>>
>>> world.
>>>   
>>>
>>>> I see two courses of action for you Jon:
>>>>
>>>> If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find
>>>> something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent
>>>> ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as
>>>> you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for
>>>> training on the Next Big Thing.
>>>>
>>>> If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something
>>>> about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn
>>>> smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you
>>>> can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing.
>>>>
>>>> But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can).
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>
>>> *round of applause for this man*
>>>
>>> Well said!
>>>
>>> Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check
>>> it out, fix it and release it as your own
>>> GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to
>>> fix it then we will all love
>>> you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC.
>>>
>>> If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ....................... and
>>> talk more but you are not prepared to actually
>>> do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else
>>> where you are not cluttering
>>> up all our mailboxes.
>>>
>>> I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is
>>> enough. Either shut up and do something
>>> or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of
>>> this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm
>>> alone in that.
>>>
>>> Bart.
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
>> ~Dakota Jack~
>>
>>  
>>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org


Mime
View raw message