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From "Dakota Jack" <>
Subject Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Date Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:25:21 GMT
When someone is telling you that you are going in the wrong direction, a
good answer is not "Help me go faster".

On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <> wrote:
> >> Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere
> in
> >> bugzilla.  Can you point me to it?
> >
> > James, I understand that this is some kind of attempt at sarcasm. The
> > problem is that you're obviously not really thinking about what you're
> > saying.
> Oh, maybe you are right.  What I really meant to say is "put up or shut
> up".
> The only excuse for not helping is not knowing how or not having
> time.  And
> we have the "how" covered under the FAQ link, and since you are obviously
> a
> very successful part of Freemarker, I doubt this fits you.  So, again, why
> have you not offerred to help explain things better?  Did you just come
> here
> to complain?
> Trust me, your complaints do not affect the compensation I get from the
> ASF.
> I am richly rewarded for my contributions.  In fact, I still get dividends
> from time to time.  Just the other day I got an email from someone
> thanking
> me for helping with a particularly difficult issue they had struggled with
> until Google landed them on a response I had made a few months back, which
> helped them get to a solution much faster than they would have on their
> own.
> That's my currency.
> > Let's try to deconstruct what you're saying implicitly:
> >
> > A potential user hits your website and cannot, on the basis of the text
> > there, understand what the product is or does.
> I see, so you speak for EVERYONE now, correct?
> > You seem to be suggesting that this very same individual should offer a
> > patch to fix this issue.
> That's not what I said.
> You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the
> product is or does.  How can you claim this unless you actually DO
> understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who
> doesn't.  Do you see the difference?
> Furthermore, for you to even suggest that this is confusing means that you
> actually do care about what people think about Struts.  Am I wrong?  If
> not,
> then why have you only offerred criticism and not a patch?
> >
> > Or in other words:
> >
> > The "bug" that a person reports is that the text on a website is
> basically
> > incomprehensible. He doesn't understand what you're talking about. So he
> > offers a patch so that *HE* now will understand WTF *YOU* are talking
> > about.
> See above explanation.
> >
> > Do you see the basis for Monty Python skit here?
> To use your own words, "Well, yeah... blah blah".
> >
> > Look, James, obviously it is up to the Struts people to explain clearly
> > what their product is.
> No, it isn't.  As Ted and others have explain NUMEROUS times in the past.
> We are here to scratch an itch!!!!!  We are here to build the software
> that
> WE want to use for OUR projects.  It just so happens that a few of us
> spend
> some extra time on documentation.  We are NOT obligated to do so.  If I'm
> wrong, then I must have missed that section in the ASF guidelines or
> bylaws.
> Maybe if we were JBoss Inc. or Spring21 we might have paid staff to keep
> the
> docs all prettified and such.
> >
> > Henri asked me specifically to say what my criticism of the website was
> > and I answered the question. I just said that you have to reconsider the
> > audience that the site is oriented towards.
> Aha, see, you do care.
> >
> > Do you think I'm wrong about this?
> >
> > Whether you do or not, should people who offer their opinion in good
> faith
> > ...
> LMAO!  Is that what you call it?
> > ... be subjected to this kind of lame, moronic sarcasm? To me, this just
> > doesn't seem like adult behavior.
> I see, well, among the more moronic things I've seen you say here more
> than
> once include:
> "Moreover, the fact that Struts was unable to stay competitive with
> Webwork even given the huge advantages you should have in terms of
> attracting collaborators, this seems to suggest that your model did not
> work very well."
> What model is that?  You base your "opinion in good faith" on unfounded
> principals.  The Apache way is not based on business models.  Apache is
> in the business of competing with anyone.  Why do you (and others) keep
> suggesting different?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > lead developer, FreeMarker project
> Even your signature block shows that you don't "get it".  Why do you claim
> "lead developer"?  Does that make you better than all of the others?  Or
> more important somehow?  When is the last time Craig put "lead developer"
> in
> his signature block?  Why doesn't Martin put "PMC Chair" under his name?
> Some people have misgivings about some kind of perceived power that comes
> with committership.  As if the larger the project, the more power or
> influence.  The real champions at Apache, or "lead developers" as you
> might
> put it, have earned the respect of others by helping out where it counts,
> not counting who has written more lines of code.
> And just to make it clear, when I say "champions", I'm NOT talking about
> committers.  I'm NOT drawing a line down the middle of the page separating
> committers and non-committers as Dakota continues to claim.  The Struts
> community is alive and well and will continue to thrive under our current
> leadership and "model" (as you say), proving yet again that it isn't so
> much
> about the code as it is about the community.
> --
> James Mitchell
> Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
> Consulting / Mentoring
> 678.910.8017
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"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~

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