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From "Dakota Jack" <>
Subject Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Date Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:31:55 GMT
So the "committers" are these stoic types who have nothing to do with
anything evil, nasty, or wrong in Struts.  None "committers" are passionate
oafs who do not understand squat.  I think the people in charge should take
responsibility for the situation.  You don't see the "situation" as usual.

"Committers" are not a type and have no "marks".  "Committers" are just
people you guys have chosen to play with.  There is nothing more special
about "committers" than there is about "your friends".

It is interesting that you find the views of people, like this person, as
"complaining".  I find your notes complaining.  I also find your notes
completely divorced from reality and the facts.  They are akin to Craig's
notes that JSF is just hopping in the job market.  Your stats are really

There are all sorts of people who advocate strongly for JSF on this list,
and Craig leads the list.  Just because you are blissfully happy about it
does not mean there is no divide, and does not mean there is no impact.  The
bottom line will be the future of Struts.  See how that goes.  You have been
the shepards.  Now you are all starting to bail about Struts failures by
blaming the need for backward compatibility, etc.  The truth is that Struts
is in horrible shape compared to the standards of the present moment and you
committers get all the credit.  Congratulations!

I assume you believe this stuff that you repeat over and over, like that one
hand clapping you mention.  However, it is in my opinion sophomoric and
false.  If you have any intention of using Shale, then I really did
misunderstand the depth of your knowledge in the past.

MyFaces or something similar I could understand.  But Shale?  Lord!

I don't think, by the way, that the present Struts is anything like the
Apache culture.  Just hang out, as I am sure you do, on the other lists and
you will immediately see the difference.  Struts is in a unique predicament
created by those "committers" who have no passions and apparently no
responsibility, even though they are in charge.

This is the old, standard, never changes, Ted who won't listen and who says
"na na na na na" with his ears covered.  You are the reason the people you
deride are not committers, along with the other "committers" who are your
progeny.  Don't tell me that the committers on the whole are there by
merit.  Some of them have trouble slobbering.  Others are talented and
forthright.  Others are talented and political as hell.  There is every
variety in the mix.

I also have new sfor you, Ted.  Non-committers have jobs, families,
talents.  The fact is that Struts is a place of division.  I guess you are
right though.  That has nothing to do with you or the committes.  Divisive
people just happened to pick on Struts.  You poor, poor committers.
Sometimes fate just has this fickle hand.  You deserved better than to have
to deal with those "complainers".

On 3/17/06, Ted Husted <> wrote:
> > The problem is not with JSF itself, but the way the Struts team has
> divided itself
> > into competing camps. JSF and Struts are competing because their
> > approaches are orthogonal; it doesn't make any sense to do both
> > unless you are on a migration path.
> ...
> > I think Struts does have a future, but I believe there needs
> > to be honesty about the competition here. Struts DOES COMPETE against
> > JSF and Shale, and putting these competitors into one mailing list
> > will definitely bring out the passion on both sides.
> I think one mark of a committer and PMC member is that we don't have
> those type of passions. There are three of four of those passionate
> types on this thread. But none of them are committers. And, out of the
> thousands of people who subscribe to this list, it's the same three or
> four people who complain, over and over again. (What's is the sound of
> one hand clapping?)
> Committers tend to be pragmatic people who are just trying to earn our
> living building applications that work. We aren't trying to be an
> expert committee that decides what everyone else should be doing.
> We're just trying to solve our own problems and share the solutions.
> Like every working engineer, sometimes we get to choose what
> technologies we use. Sometimes the technologies choose us.
> Right now, I don't need to use JSF. Six months from now, I might. And
> should that day come, I'll be very glad that both my old and new
> friends have been cranking out Shale code that I will be able to use.
> And since we are on the same dev list, it's easy for me to keep up
> with what we are doing with Shale, even if I don't need to use it at
> work today. Duty now for the future!
> It's a little bit like saying that because my brother likes the Titans
> and I like the Falcons, one of us has to move, since we couldn't
> possibly live under one roof, and share our love for football. Sure
> there are some people who can't put aside their fanatism, and who
> insist on arguing about things that in five or six years won't matter.
> But, those people are not the Struts committers.
> At the Apache Software Foundation, we take the long view. A couple of
> years ago is was JSTL. Now is JSF. In a few more years, it will be
> something else. And, when those new years come, I very much hope that
> all the committers we have here now will still be at my side, helping
> each other out, collaborating, and sharing the wealth. Just as we do
> today.
> As for this thread, I've said all that I have to say, several times
> over. I won't say anything more. If some people don't understand our
> position, that's fine. A lot of people don't understand the Apache
> Culture. But, if someone doesn't understand us, please don't assume we
> are anything other than what we appear to be. A gaggle of engineeers
> trying to solve our own problems in a cooperative, collaborative way.
> That's what we were six years ago, and that's what we will be six
> years from now.
> -Ted.
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"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~

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