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From Steve Raeburn <>
Subject Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Date Fri, 17 Mar 2006 20:31:50 GMT
I guess I should have put some <sarcasm> tags in :-) No, Ajax is cool. 
Possibly over-hyped and I have doubts about maintainability and 
accessibility, but very cool.

Rather than people volunteering to be community leaders, I think you are 
trying to *give* people leadership responsibility, which I don't think 
is fair -- unless there is a large cheque attached ;-)

Although under no obligation to do so, the Struts committers have shown 
a great deal of responsibility to the community. Many have actively 
participated on the mailing lists to help people learn and use Struts 
(and often non-Struts too). There has been great emphasis on backwards 
compatibility, to ensure your investment in Struts is not wasted. There 
has been a great deal of effort put into ease of use and documentation - 
more than is required for the committers' own use. Committers (and other 
contributors) have voluntarily accepted those responsibilities and spent 
the time necessary to fulfil them.

The responsibility that has been shown is more than I have any right to 
expect. I'm grateful for it and I'm sure it has contributed to the 
success of Struts, but I have no automatic right to expect it.

Bottom line is that the only *rights* you have are those granted by the 
license. Craig was generous enough to initially contribute Struts under 
a permissive license, which means that if you really feel the Struts 
project (code + community) is not serving your needs, that you won't be 
prevented from using and modifying it as you see fit. Even starting a 
new project if that's what you want.

One final thought. If the committers have a responsibility to the 
community, what is the community responsibility to the committers?


Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> On Fri, March 17, 2006 2:23 pm, Steve Raeburn said:
>> Frank, I don't think Java Web Parts should provide support for Ajax.
>> After all, this is *Java* Web Parts and Ajax has nothing to do with
>> Java. Anyway, Ajax is just a fad and I don't like it. If you want to do
>> Ajax, you should split it off into a separate project.
> I've been thinking about that actually, but for a different reason...
> AjaxTags is by far the most popular part of JWP, and it might do well to
> develop on its own.  I haven't raised this with the other team members
> though, so it's just my mussings in this one thread :)
> You really think it's a fad?  I can't say I agree... although it's not new
> for many of us, I think it is for more.  It's a different way of
> approaching web development in essence... forget the nitty gritty of this
> library vs. that library or XMLHttpRequest objects, etc...  I don't think
> it's a fad, in fact I think its quite the opposite: a paradim shift.
> Well, I think we can probably agree at least that it's one tool in the
> toolbox.  Whether you like it or choose to use it or not is completely up
> to you :)
>> Give me commit rights and I'll just delete it myself. Ok?
> Sure, no problem :)
>> Regarding responsibility accepted by the committers, let me refer you to
>> the Apache License:
>> 7. Disclaimer of Warranty. Unless required by applicable law or agreed
>> to in writing, Licensor provides the Work (and each Contributor provides
>> OF ANY KIND, either express or implied, including, without limitation,
>> any warranties or conditions of TITLE, NON-INFRINGEMENT,
>> responsible for determining the appropriateness of using or
>> redistributing the Work and assume any risks associated with Your
>> exercise of permissions under this License.
>> If you get value from the code, use it. If not, don't. End of
>> responsibility.
> I think we're talking about two different forms of responsibility.  I'm in
> no way, shape or form saying or implying that a committer is ever liable
> for code.  Absolutely they are not.  I think they have a responsibility to
> do the best work they can, but that's about it, and I've never had any
> doubt about that part of it, I think each committer does the best they
> can.  I don't think anyone is purposely committing substandard code or
> anything like that, not in the least do I think that.
> I'm talking about the responsibility of being a leader.  My view, and
> that's all it is in the end is my view of things, is that being a
> committer means you have accepted some extra degree of responsibility to
> be a leader and consider the community when you make decisions.  I do not
> believe that you are simply a technician doing technical work any longer
> at that point.  Espcially when you have something that has grown to the
> degree Struts has, and has so many people invested in it in various ways,
> I don't think you are simply a "gaggle of engineers" as longer.  That may
> have been how it started, but evolution has something to say about what it
> may have become now.
> Again, I go back to my neighborhood analogy... I can be a good member of
> the neighborhood by simply not doing anything that bothers others, i.e.,
> don't play my music too loud, don't leave garbage on the lawn, etc.  But
> if I decide to become a member of some neighborhood council, that actively
> is developing the company (i.e., maintaing a shared playground area), as
> you find in some exclusive communities, you then have some responsibility
> to consider the larger community more than when your on your own because
> your decisions potentially affect everyone.  This is the kind of
> responsibility I'm referring to.
>> BTW I do respect you as a contributor to the Struts community and do
>> accept your right to comment on how the community is run and where the
>> code is going.
> Thanks, I appreciate that :)
>> I just don't agree that you have a right to question
>> people's motives or tell them how to spend their time.
> That's fine.  I'm not sure I've ever told anyone how to spend their time,
> and I also don't think I've questioned anyones motives lately (I have in
> the past, and I apologized for it), but I'm certainly not going to say you
> can't disagree with me in any case! :)
>> Steve
> Frank
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