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From "Alexandre Poitras" <alexandre.poit...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Date Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:09:15 GMT
On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <dakota.jack@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was not talking about you.  I was talking about JSF.  JSF is well known
> for being for tools.  Read your own citations.
>

It is? Or was it just one goal among many others?

> On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <alexandre.poitras@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't agree with you FacesServlet is a pure front controller, Faces
> > lacks an application controller on purpose but not a front controller.
> > It fits to the description in the blue prints and in Martin Fowler
> > book, the best reference on Enterprise applications patterns I know
> > of. Just tell me why you think it isn't? I will agree that JSf doesn't
> > have an application controller (this what Shale offer after all) but
> > it is totally front-controller oriented according to the definition. I
> > think you are confusing application controller and front controller
> > patterns, But since I disagree with you I don't get MVC and you are
> > not interested. Fallacies again Dakota...
> >
> > First, here's some reference about JSF being front controller oriented
> > (not by Craig since you always claim he has an hidden agenda,
> > something I found totally ridiculous):
> >
> >
> > http://www.codeguru.com/csharp/.net/net_general/toolsand3rdparty/article.php/c11139/
> >
> > http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/java/newsletter/articles/introjsf/index.html
> > http://websphere.sys-con.com/read/46516.htm
> > http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/wa-dsgnpatjsf.html
> > http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/GUI/JavaServerFaces/
> >
> >
> > Oh yeah right those articles are from big corporations who just want
> > to make profit on poor developers.... But do some searches yourself,
> > you'll find tons of reference on the subject.
> >
> > Here's what I get of MVC in JSF :
> >
> > Controler = FrontController + event dispatchers
> > Model = backing beans (data model) + UI components (ui model)
> > View = renderers + the view handler
> >
> > So where am I wrong? Please give me some technical details for once
> > instead of saying I don't get it.
> >
> > By the way, I develop JSF applications using Vanilla Eclipse and my
> > coworkers do to. Tools support is not why we have chosen JSF.
> >
> >
> > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <dakota.jack@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > This (below) has nothing to do with smarts.  It has to do with the
> > purpose
> > > of JSF.  The same was true of Visual Basic.  A genius might use it or
> > build
> > > it or whatever.  Indeed, I have friends smarter than me for sure who
> > worked
> > > for years with Visual Basic.  But, it was made for the technically
> > > challenged and is a tool, nonetheless.  JSF, I must assume, was built
> > the
> > > way it was as an answer to the .NET challenge.  Myself, I think that is
> > a
> > > mistake, but I understand the reasoning.  I am not against JSF, never
> > have
> > > been.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <alexandre.poitras@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <dakota.jack@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > JSF is built for those who are
> > > > > technically challenged and for tools.
> > > >
> > > > Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait "technically
> > > > challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is...
> > >
> > > </snip>
> > >
> > >  This (below) notion that JSF has a front controller is plain bogus.  I
> > > recommend you follow up on this, check definitions, etc. (aside from
> > those
> > > marketing definitions Craig has offered) and think it through.  Try the
> > > following sort of basic introduction to the front controller pattern:
> > >
> > >
> > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/FrontController.html
> > > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html
> > >
> > > Mostly, I think, you need to take a look at how the model / view /
> > > controller are connected in your web architecture, with a clear
> > > understanding, as Ted has pointed out, that the web MVC decoupling is:
> > >
> > > controller --> model --> view
> > >
> > > If you chose to couple everything, then I am not interested in your
> > ideas.
> > > Someone else might be, but I am not.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page
> > > > controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is
> > > > equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that JSF
> > > > doesn't include straight out of the book an Application Controller. It
> > > > focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for input
> > > > controller and not application controller, something a lot of people
> > > > don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading).
> > >
> > >
> > > </snip>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> > back."
> > > ~Dakota Jack~
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alexandre Poitras
> > Québec, Canada
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>


--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada

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