struts-user mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From "Mark Lowe" <>
Subject Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Date Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:20:30 GMT
On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <> wrote:
> On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Tomcat is perhaps a little different in that its a reference
> > implementation its survival and usefulness is potentially broader.
> Having been heavily involved in the development of Tomcat (the Catalina
> servlet container in Tomcat 4.x and later was basically my original design
> for Apache JServ 2.0, but was adopted by the Tomcat community for 4.0), as
> well as Struts, I think I can be a reliable commentator here :-).
> * Tomcat didn't succeed becase it was a reference implementation.
>   It succeeeded because it did the basic job of being a servlet and
>   JSP container better/faster than many implementations at the time,
>   and it was available under a business friendly license.  It continues
>   to be popular because it continues to excell at execution of these
>   goals (along with adding very nice configurability and other features
>   that go way beyond the spec required functionality).  If it was
>   "merely" a reference implementation, it would have been ignored
>   by the market.

I wasn't suggesting that tomcat was only successful because it was a
reference implementation, that one of its uses that's distinct from
something like struts is that is a reference implementation. I was
just trying to make a point about how the absurd idea that
success/popularity of a given piece of software, framework etc. Is
more likey to be a function of its usefulness and not political
conspiricies as dakota jack would have folk believe.

> * Struts didn't succeed because it was dreamed up by some idiot
>   sitting on the beach (although the initial 0.1 version *was* coded
>   on a three day weekend at the Oregon coast :-).  It succeeded because
>   it met real world needs, and continues to be popular because this
> continues
>   to be the case, plus the fact that the developers listen to their users
>   (which is a blessing and a curse -- it means a strong commitment to
>   backwards compatibility, and a corresponding reticence to break
>   backwards compatibility willy nilly :-).
> I would submit that these two use cases (which happen to be two of the most
> popular Java based downloads across all of Apache) make a pretty good case
> that the Apache development model can work wonders.  Throw Ant into the
> equation, for the same sorts of reasons.  It's all about consensus among a
> developer community, not about individual opinions on what is technically
> elegant or not.  Don't agree?  Please show me some Java based projects that
> are more popular.  (I don't care if you think their technical design is
> superior or not -- I'm asking about popularity :-).
> If you don't like the technology, you're free to offer alternatives.
> Likewise, the Struts developers are free to accept or reject those
> alternatives.  That's life.  Nothing is stopping you from going out and
> evangelizing an alternative approach -- other than the fact that the world
> at large (a) may not agree with your assessment of technical beauty, (b) may
> not care because they have xxx thousands of lines of Struts code already, or
> (c) may not even bother to pay attention because they can't find any
> developers that know your framework well enough to create and maintain
> applications with.
> Technical elegance is, in the big picture, only one factor that leads to
> popularity.  You have to execute well on basically *all* of those factors.
> Plus, more often than not, you have to be lucky with your timing.  If you
> want to fundamentally change the world, you have a *much* better chance if
> you tackle a problem that has not been solved yet.  Building YAWAF (yet
> another web application framework) might be fun and rewarding, but if you're
> starting in 2006 it is unlikely to be market relevant -- no matter how cool
> the architecture is.
> Craig

To unsubscribe, e-mail:
For additional commands, e-mail:

View raw message