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Subject Re: has struts reached the saturation
Date Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:35:30 GMT
I just thought I'd chime in here even though I haven't been following the
arguments all along.  As background - I'm working a contract where we use
JSF with ADF controls mixed in.  I have had a very pleasant experience
using JSF with Eclipse though most of my previous experience was with
Struts.  There are some problems with refreshing pages and hitting the
backbutton but aside from that it's been good to be able to (for instance)
tie buttons directly to methods on backing beans.

The ADF controls have some pretty cool features.  Like partial updates
which essentially use Ajax to update part of the page without a full
refresh.  However the ADF controls haven't been nearly as customizable as
the customer wanted so we've had to "make do" in places where we should
have been able to redesign.  Recently we found out that a contract had
never been negotiated with Oracle on using the ADF controls so we started
that process.  It turned out we couldn't get the controls by themselves
and the cost would be around $50,000.  For that amount I could have spent
6 months developing the few controls we really needed myself and they'd be
customized (or customizable) to our needs...but it was too late for
anything like that.  Then ADF was given to Apache - but not everything we
needed such as the look and feel - which would take us months to create on
our own.  So if we wanted to go live we had to pay off Oracle.  This is a
special case but it does exhibit how it can be dangerous to go with a
closed source solution without knowing what you're getting into.

Braedan Hegberg

> On 3/15/06, Greg Reddin <> wrote:
>> On Mar 14, 2006, at 10:25 PM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>> > JSF is a way for a lot of people to make money.  Many vendors have
>> > a stake in its "commercial" success or failure.  This has been true
>> > from the beginning.  Some would say the whole point of JSF from the
>> > start was to make money for one company, and eventually a lot of
>> > other companies.  Incidentally, I'm a happy capitalist, I therefore
>> > have no problem whatsoever with that!  I just like that fact not
>> > being denied, and I for one do see it as fact.  Contrast this with
>> > how something like Struts began, which came straight from the
>> > idealism you speak of, a desire to help a community, a desire by
>> > one developer to create something that not only helped themselves
>> > but helped others.  I think that is a wonderful motivation.  And
>> > that may have been that same developers' motivation with JSF as
>> > well, but I to this day do not believe it was the motivation of the
>> > larger entities involved.
>> I find it ironic that people are bemoaning JSF for its commercial
>> interests.  First, I seem to remember sometime between 2001 and 2003
>> there were a lot of people asking "When is Struts going to become a
>> JSR?".  So, for the moment let's just pretend that the motivation for
>> JSR-127 was to standardize an MVC framework.  By the time JSR-127 was
>> introduced we were already discussing the things we'd do differently
>> in version 2 of Struts.  Surely we didn't think the output of JSR-127
>> would be Struts as we knew it then.  Surely we wouldn't have been
>> happy if it had.
>> Second, look at who is represented on the Expert Group for JSR-127.
>> Why would companies like Oracle, Borland, IBM, Macromedia, BEA, HP,
>> etc. bother to participate in a such project if they weren't
>> protecting their own interests?  Just look at how many tool-makers
>> are present among the expert group.  Is it any wonder the resulting
>> spec brings them the opportunity to cash in?  That's not even to
>> mention all the other community-driven framework options that were in
>> play when JSF was under development.  Personally, I think the
>> resulting framework is not too bad considering.  I would've liked the
>> Struts worldview to have been better represented - or maybe I am
>> saying the "tool-less" developer's worldview.  But given all the
>> players, I'm not surprised or disappointed with what we have.
>> Now, directly to your point of commercial interests.  You say "JSF is
>> a way for a lot of people to make money."  What is Java?  Do you
>> think Sun developed Java as a "love offering" to the developer
>> community?  Why do any of these organizations exist?  For that
>> matter, why do I develop software?  Is it because I've found the
>> meaning of life or simply because it's better than working at a
>> rendering plant?  Well, for me it's somewhere in the middle.  But for
>> organizations like Sun, Oracle, or BEA, it's all about the
>> economics.  I'm not talking about the individuals that work at these
>> companies.  I'm talking about the organizations themselves.  At the
>> organizational level, they are solely about increasing financial
>> gain.  And I'm not saying that's bad.  If they weren't they would
>> quickly go out of business.  People start companies to grow
>> business.  People start non-profit organizations (like ASF) for the
>> betterment of mankind.  So I guess I find the argument of commercial
>> interests to be completely irrelevant.
>> I like some aspects of JSF and I dislike others.  For some tasks I
>> find it vastly superior to Struts.  For others I find it difficult to
>> use.  Now *maybe* if JSF was developed in a community instead of a
>> committee it would be less intrusive and more useful.  But that's one
>> of the reasons I have hope for Shale.  It starts with the foundation
>> of the JSF standard.  It then builds on the foundation in a community-
>> centric way and that has the possibility of resulting in something
>> very useful.
>> Greg
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> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~

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