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From Adam Hardy <>
Subject Re: Nice try (was Java code generator including Struts 1.2)
Date Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:31:08 GMT

are you going to turn into a Games programmer?! ;)

ooops sorry it's not friday yet.

Pilgrim, Peter on 11/08/05 11:02, wrote:
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: []
>>Sent: 11 August 2005 06:39
>>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: Nice try (was Java code generator including Struts 1.2)
>>OK, my post did look kind of ugly. It really wasn't directed 
>>at any person, just at the words.
>>I've been programming with Swing since 1.1.8 and finally I am 
>>able to do it for a living. I've heard all the Swing stinks 
>>arguments just like I've heard all the EJB stinks arguments. 
>>But I've built applications using each that don't stink. It 
>>took me a long time to get good at AWT/Swing/Graphics in 
>>Java. Years. The applications that people commonly use for a 
>>point of reference, such as Limewire, just don't illustrate 
>>what these APIs can do. You haven't seen what's behind 
>>corporate firewalls. JFC exposes much, graphically, that the 
>>underlying windowing toolkit has to offer. There is nothing 
>>stopping you from taking a blank panel, a Graphics2D and 
>>implementing your own layout managers and all your own 
>>controls. And they won't be slow unless you write code that 
>>doesn't take a Thread from point A to point B on the shortest 
>>route possible. In fact, they have a good chance of being 
>>awesome. But, you can get tangled up in large method stacks 
>>if you don't scour the source and examine a lot of stack 
>>traces, if you just blindly use the APIs and "recommended" 
>>coding styles.
>>I've criticized Swing too. The main problem with it is that 
>>the authors used private and package-private fields and 
>>methods everywhere, making subclassing difficult and in some 
>>places nearly impossible. Library designers should use 
>>protected unless told otherwise. There are other criticisms 
>>but that's my main one.
>>But, it made me mad when I started reading all these articles 
>>about SWT and Eclipse and how Swing "sucked". I didn't want 
>>Sun/JCP to ever buy that. People parrot that stuff. I want 
>>Sun/JCP to keep on working on it and keep on making it 
>>better. It has come a long way and you can do ANYTHING with 
>>it if you invest the time instead of looking for some 
>>framework or plugin to do everything for you.
>>Anyway, I know, I'm on the wrong list. All I should have said 
>>is: Good Swing code is anything but "crap code".
> Before getting into Servlets I did a hell of a lot Swing development. 
> Investment banks in the UK were using Swing and the Java Plug-in 
> way back in 1999, before uptake of Servlets and JSP.
> In fact I reviewed the first edition of Manning's book "Swing" by 
> Vorobev et al for the Association of C/C++ Users in the UK 
> ( The my review quote is printed on the 
> subsequent editions of the book. This was and still is great book 
> that clearly demonstrate what you can achieved with the Swing API 
> circa 2000. 
> I have left Swing / Java2D behind both professionally and leisurely
> to concentrate on J2EE architecture, but I have fond members of 
> tinkering with the Swing. For one thing it was god-send back then
> when all you had was AWT. I bet things have improved immensely
> with JNDC and what the Sun Swing team have done since I turned J2EE.
> If you were at JavaONE you cant failed to be impressed with the Joplin
> MP3 player demonstation. If you were at the pavillion and talked to
> Sun JFC guys they are pressing ahead with more innovations
> and are seriously reviewing and acting the look and feel criticism
> One thing that is always levered at Swing constantly is it is graphic emulation
> of the native platform's look and feel. For this is one of Swing 
> core strength, nowhere have I seen a toolkit with a pluggable 
> look and feel architecture. A fantastic example of applying desing
> pattern. Because of that you should really learn Swing to see 
> how a very complex but very useful API can be designed. 
> People get itchy, however, about PLAF: Meaning that Java is slow. 
> At this year's JavaONE, the idea that Java is slow is completely
> nonsense. I was blown away by Java 3D demonstration. Admittedly 
> the demo I saw was one 3D POV and speeding over an intense detailed
> mountainous display. For a gaming you 'd need artifical combatants 
> and intelligence and lots of collision detection etc etc but 
> man it was amazing to see Java doing the business. The future is bright.
> --
> Peter Pilgrim :: J2EE Software Development
> Operations/IT - Credit Suisse First Boston, 
> Floor 15, 5 Canada Square, London E14 4QJ, United Kingdom
> Tel: +44-(0)207-883-4497
> ==============================================================================
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