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From Woodchuck <>
Subject Re: Is It Possible to Code Using Struts and JSF at the Same Time?
Date Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:52:10 GMT
don't you just love Friday discussions!!??  :D

i think it's normal and healthy to be somewhat skeptical, and it is
natural for the knee-jerk response to something that is being force-fed
to them to be rejection.  heck, even babies may not right away eat the
apple sauce you try to stuff in them!

i think what is irking a lot of people in the community is the *way* in
which JSF is being marketed.  oooh, i would even go so far as to say
that the evangelism is Microsoft-esque, but in a subtler way.

but even you admited about category 2.  i think anyone falling into
this category has a right to be antagonistic about JSF.  the type of
push that is being done right about JSF is primed at creating category
2 cases.  i think this is pretty much the all-too-familiar scenario
that everyone knows.

does this really seem right??  .... 


--- Craig McClanahan <> wrote:

> On Apr 1, 2005 12:48 PM, Frank W. Zammetti <>
> wrote:
> > Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > > Feel free to continue using Struts, however, if that floats
> *your* boat.
> > 
> > It's not really as simple as that though, is it Craig?
> > 
> Sure it is.  People will continue to use Struts no matter what
> happens
> with JSF -- the world doesn't turn corners overnight.
> Also, remember that the world isn't binary.  Even if JSF is "good"
> that doesn't make Struts "bad" -- it would just mean that Struts
> might
> be "no longer the best" (as many advocates of other MVC frameworks
> will already argue, even without JSF in the picture).  And those
> people are right, for the use cases where the other frameworks do a
> better job.
> > You have a great deal of sway, your opinion carries a lot of
> weight.
> > You have earned that without question.  So by you making
> proclamations,
> > even if veiled proclamations, people are going to listen and form a
> > conclusion on what you are *really* telling them.  Their conclusion
> may
> > be wrong, but it will have an impact on them none the less.  As
> someone
> > else said, the easy (and I think obvious) conclusion is that Struts
> is
> > nearing an end, JSF is what we should be doing.
> There's been lots of comments about what "everyone is saying" (here,
> about JSF, but in general about any technology).  To make good
> decisions, however, it is useful to divide "everyone" into several
> categories:
> (1) Those who have evaluated the technology and can
>     tell you exactly what they like and don't like about it.
>     Of this population, some will choose to adopt it and
>     some will not.
> (2) Those who were forced to use the technology, and
>   because of their experience can tell you exactly what
>   they like and don't like about it.
> (3) Those who haven't looked at the technology, and
>   are only echoing what they've heard (either positive
>   or negative).
> When a technology first becomes available, the number of people in
> category (1) is very small, and the "hype" around it (both positive
> and negative) is mostly from people in category (3).  Over time, the
> number of people in category (2) grows if a technology becomes widely
> adopted, and the number of people with informed opinions grows.
> A pretty large number of existing Struts users came in as category
> (2)
> -- it was adopted as a company standard by many organizations, so
> there was no choice but to use it for that company's applications --
> and there are more than a few of them with legitimate technical
> complaints about Struts, especially from those who might have
> preferred something like WebWork or Tapestry, but were not allowed to
> use them.
> Basically, my advice is to pay attention to the folks in category (1)
> and category (2), and ignore the folks in category (3).  But the
> ideal
> position for *you* to be in is category (1) -- try it out, and see if
> it meets your own needs, and use it *if* it does.
> > I think there is little question that you have taken every
> opportunity
> > to tell everyone that JSF is in fact "the future".  There is no
> doubt in
> > my mind that you actually believe that.  And I'm not about to say
> you
> > won't wind up being right!  Time will tell.
> One could say that, beyond just saying this, I'm betting my career on
> it.  My "day job" is being architect for Sun Java Studio Creator, a
> product that is very much based on JSF.
> But, given my role in both Struts and JSF (I was co-spec-lead for JSF
> 1.0), I would hope people consider me to be in category (1) on the
> above classification scale.
> > But, you do work for a company with a profit motive in JSF... How
> could
> > that NOT put some doubt in peoples' minds?  Are we being lead down
> a
> > path that might not actually be the best technically, because their
> is
> > profit in it for someone?  I don't know, and it worries me,
> especially
> > when one of the big proponents of said path is someone I very much
> > respect and listen to.  But then there's the rub, right?  Am I
> making my
> > decision based on a reasoned examination of the solution being
> offered,
> > or because I trust the person delivering the message?
> If you use JSF solely because *I* (or anyone else) says to -- or
> *don't* use it simply because someone says it is crap -- you're being
> a category (3) person.  All I want you to do is evaluate it for
> yourself, and make your own decision.
> > This is the problem with JSF at this juncture... It isn't just a
> project
> > released to the world that takes hold, as Struts was.  JSF is
> something
> > sponsored and pushed as a standard by a company that is in business
> to
> > make money, and by a person who works for that company, among
> others.
> > There HAS to be some doubt there, doesn't there?
> You might want to note that JSF is not just a Sun initiative.  There
> were 40 companies in the expert group, the final vote on the
> 16-member
> JCP Executive Committee was unanimous in favor, and more than a few
> companies have products and component libraries based on it.  In the
> Apache incubator you'll also see an Apache-licensed open source
> effort
> to create a compatible implementation.
> If you want to doubt me because I'm biased, that's fine.  So go
> evaluate it YOURSELF instead of just listening to me!
> > 
> > Am I alone in this thinking?  If so I'll be happy to shut up and
> just
> > see how it all goes, but I have to think I'm not the only one...
> > 
> It doesn't matter to me what anyone in Category (3) says, positive or
> negative.  Success of a technology is measured by category (1)
> adopters, which (of course) leads to category (2) adopters later on. 
> And it is already happening.
> So which category are you (directed at everyone, not just Frank) in?
> > Frank W. Zammetti
> Craig
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