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From Matt Bathje <>
Subject [OT] Re: An Eclipse Like WebApp Framework? -- a proposal
Date Wed, 06 Oct 2004 16:19:17 GMT
Michael -

I would have to say...get working. It is pretty obvious from this and 
the dev list that you are very unhappy with struts and its developers. 
While struts does some of what you want, it is very lacking for you. I 
think it is also obvious that your view of what struts should be does 
not coincide with most of the struts developers or users, and would most 
likely not become Struts v3.0.

Just submitting a proposal of this nature will go nowhere, (If my 
knowledge of open source history is any good...) so don't just submit a 
proposal. Sit down and work on an implementation of what you propose. 
Put it up on sourceforge. Advertise it here (with an appropriate OT 
label of course). If it is any good people WILL start using it, and WILL 
start helping out with it. If it is good enough, it could make struts 
obsolete as people start using your framework instead, which nobody 
(including the struts committers...) would have a problem with. If it is 
not any good they won't, but you will have a start on what you are 
looking for at least.

Your initial crack at the project may not even have to be any good, look 
at Linux 0.1. Without some sort of code to go on though, nobody will 
probably ever take this up...this is a proposal that scratches YOUR 
specific itch, so you have to be the impetus behind it.

If you just submit the proposal, or if you try to build a team or get a 
committee together to discuss it or whatever this will go nowhere. Open 
source projects that do these administrative type things before they 
have any code are doomed to failure in my opinion, unless they have some 
big blue backing ;) The ultimate example of this in my opinion is the 
"Freedows" project of a few years back...but that is getting off track.

Anyways, this is the way I see it: You can talk all you want, and malign 
struts and its developers all you want, but until you start implementing 
what you want, nothing will happen.


p.s. I kind of hinted at this above, but I am kind of offended by the 
"build a framework without ego in the core" comment in your proposal. It 
seems to me that it was a personal attack on the struts committers and 
how they drive the development. Just because the Struts developers do 
not agree with your views sometimes, it does not mean the project is ego 
driven. I have found the committers and the user/dev lists to be some of 
the best, most helpful, least ego driven people in the open source 
community. I can honestly say that I have never seen the "power" of 
being a committer go to anybody's head.

Michael McGrady wrote:

> I have a proposal at the bottom of this email.
> I know exactly what you want.  Struts is a wonderful potential base for 
> this.  I have been crying for this in Struts, but have only gotten 
> resistence from the more vocal committers and, I think, a failure to see 
> what the problem is.
> Right now Struts includes way too much application specific coding in 
> the core.  With a pretty concerted team effort it could be cleaned up, 
> but with 1.3 on the way, that does not seem to be wise at the moment.  
> With Struts 1.2 the problem seems to be increasing rather than 
> decreasing.  I really think there is a failure to understand the 
> problem.  I am not too effective at advocating this, because I don't 
> have the time to assuage feelings around these issues.
> With Struts 1.3 coming along, I have just bided  my time and kept a copy 
> of Struts to consider starting an offshoot that makes the core the core 
> and the rest modular with plugins and extensibility.  This might not be 
> too hard, because the main thing is removing dependencies.
> If you were interested, we might try doing this as a Struts Branch, 
> maybe calling it "Branch" or "Struts Branch", with a really up-to-date 
> modular structure along the lines indicated in Stuart Dabbs Halloway's 
> "Component Development for the Java Program", keeping only a real kernel 
> as the base.  We could pop it up on SourceForge.  I bet we could even 
> recruit The Halloway Himself, even though he has gone elsewhere for the 
> majority of his time right now.  I don't think this presently exists.  I 
> do think that it would "sell" like wildfire to users.  This would allow 
> the user, in effect, to become automatic developers through their 
> plugins and extensions.  This would build a framework without ego in the 
> core.
> Michael McGrady
> James Mitchell wrote:
>> Apache Struts provides just what you want ;)  That's about as generic 
>> as you
>> can get.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rob Evans" <>
>>> Folks,
>>> I'm wondering if anyone has thought about developing an Eclipse like
>>> WebApp framework. The idea is to provide an application shell and a
>>> contribution (think plugin) mechanism. Contributions could include,
>>> tabs, navigation, help, etc..
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