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From "Frank Zammetti" <fzamm...@hotmail.com>
Subject Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
Date Tue, 14 Sep 2004 01:59:29 GMT
With that comment I was really thinking of EJBs.  I'm of the opinion that 
EJBs in many cases are not worth the trouble (maybe even most cases).  
That's always a hotly-debated opinion, people argue strongly for and against 
EJBs all the time.

However, when you start talking about a truly distributed, large and complex 
application, I think Java has the edge with EJBs.  From what I've seen, .Net 
doesn't have a true analogy to the EJB concept.  Remoting is a very good 
solution, but it's a different kind of approach from what I know of it 
(which I have to admit isn't a ton).

I think a year or two ago peoples' thinking in general started to change to 
what you mention, that these days, "dsitributed application" usually does 
mean Web Services.  I'm a big believer in that path myself, although I think 
Web Services in general are getting very bloated and convoluted with all the 
different "standards" out there.  That aside though, the basic underlying 
concepts I think is dead on.  If you believe that as well, then .Net really 
is a worthy contender because it makes Web Services so amazingly simple, I 
feel far simpler than Java does in most cases, or anything else.  That's 
what I mentioned that even with the recent strides Java has made to make Web 
Services easier, I still think .Net is ahead here, and has been from the 
start.  Just my opinion, as is all of this.

You made me nervous with your P.S. though :)  I actually prefer the XML-RPC 
approach to WS, I'd hate to see everyone moving away from it as a rule.

As for pluses and minuses... The minuses with all things .Net, as another 
poster said, is simply all MS.  Mono is coming along nicely, but I don't see 
how they'd ever not be playing catch-up.  So, you really are stuck in an 
all-MS world.  If your already in an MS shop, you would consider that a plus 
of course...

Not to get into a religious debate (but that's about the only place it CAN 
go!)... I have to disagree with the comment someone made that only Unices 
are real OS's (industrial-strength I think was the phrase?)... It has been 
my experience in the past when I did mostly MS development, that a 
properly-configured Windows box can be just as reliable, high-performing and 
secure as any Unix variant is (from Win2K upwards only... NT wasn't bad, but 
starting with Win2K I think is when Windows became worth something).  I will 
say that you have to go through more effort to get to that point of 
stability, but I've had a couple of Windows servers handling rather high 
loads for well over a year with zero down-time, and I'm no super admin 
either.  I'm not trying to say Windows is better than any Unix, heck, I 
won't even say it's quite as good, but the delta between the two, in my 
experience, is not nearly as great as is commonly argued.

Forget that wild tangent though :) ... Pluses and minuses... Creating a Web 
Service provider in .Net is as easy as throwing a specialized ASP page in 
IIS... This is akin to creating a Web Services from a JSP.  Very powerful 
mechanism (sure, you could do it with JSP's right now, but it wouldn't be as 
quick and easy).  There's other ways to do it, but that is a very nice 
capability.  The code for creating a consumer I find to be a bit less 
volumous and easier to follow than the equivalent in Java (not by much any 
more, but still).  There are some interoperability problems with .Net WS's, 
but believe it or not, from what I've read it really comes down to MS 
following specs a little TOO well!  If you try to do Java-.Net services, you 
sometimes run into some problems because .Net is a little too compliant.  
Odd to say of any MS product, but seems to be the case.

Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
www.omnytex.com





>From: Vic <vic.cekvenich@portalvu.com>
>Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <user@struts.apache.org>
>To: user@struts.apache.org
>Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:56:15 -0500
>
>Thanks so much Frank!!!!
>
>Can you exapand on this just a bit on what you said:
>
>">J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed
> > applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today
> > with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is
> > still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues
> > aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases) "
>
>Becuase to me Web Services is how you do Distributed computing, so another 
>comment on "Distributed Web Servicese" plusses and minuses for our 
>education. Like what does .NET have as a WS server? IIS?
>
>
>.V
>
>ps: AFAIK WS, including Sun, is moving away from XML-RPC to Doc/Lit, which 
>makes complex objects harder, but is more standard.
>
>
>Frank Zammetti wrote:
>>As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex 
>>.Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look 
>>at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. 
>>  Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a fine piece 
>>of work.  SO FAR it has proven to be relatively stable and even secure, no 
>>worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways.
>>
>>As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual Studio.Net much, I 
>>prefer being "closer to the metal", so to speak (in this case, that means 
>>doing mostly command line work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java 
>>development).  I think you do get the "trained monkey symdrome" to a 
>>degree when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true.
>>
>>Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE.
>>
>>In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent solution.  
>>Yes, there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be worried 
>>about security and what might be found down the road (so far so good 
>>though).  Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on.
>>
>>Now, in terms of comparisons...
>>
>>J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor support.  
>>J2EE has I think more of a community around it and more projects that can 
>>solve a multitide of problems.  I think it is a bit easier and more 
>>natural to design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with 
>>.Net.  I think .Net wins in tool maturity because I've yet to see anything 
>>that matches VS.Net overall (this is a highly debateable point to be 
>>sure).  J2EE has had more time to get the kinks worked out and it's 
>>currently a very mature platform (although .Net out of the gate was 
>>considerably further along than Java was at the start, J2EE is still 
>>ahead).
>>
>>.Net gives you some flexibility in terms of language support, although I 
>>think this is a bit overrated because even in the .Net shots I'm aware of 
>>they have generally standardized on one language or another (usually C#).  
>>True, there are some other language implemented in the JVM, but generally 
>>speaking it's a Java-only world.
>>
>>J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, 
>>although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the 
>>strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior 
>>platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't 
>>small concerns in some cases).
>>
>>Overall, anyone that says J2EE is FAR superior to .Net, or anyone that 
>>says the opposite, is *probably* a zealot one way or the other and not 
>>really worth listening to.  Anyone with an objective opinion who doesn't 
>>let their hatred of Redmond get in the way will generally say that the two 
>>are at least comperable in most ways.  Hate MS all you want, but they 
>>really have done a great engineering job with .Net... Whether it's better 
>>than J2EE is vertainly up for debate (my opinion: I still give the Jave 
>>world the nod, but not by a huge margin).
>>
>>Frank W. Zammetti
>>Founder and Chief Software Architect
>>Omnytex Technologies
>>www.omnytex.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Vic <vic.cekvenich@portalvu.com>
>>>Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <user@struts.apache.org>
>>>To: user@struts.apache.org
>>>Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
>>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:10:30 -0500
>>>
>>>
>>>And of course... there's a little thing could profit.
>>>Keep your hands of my stash. W/ any O/S, I get better quality and keep 
>>>more of my penies, important for profesional developers.
>>>
>>>But specificaly, I have not used VB or C# Express, so it's  hard for me 
>>>to compare detials.  It be great to hear from somone who deplpyed both in 
>>>production.
>>>
>>>
>>>.V
>>>
>>>
>>>Jim Barrows wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Anders Jacobsen
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:01 PM
>>>>>To: user@struts.apache.org
>>>>>Subject: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi
>>>>>
>>>>>I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) 
>>>>>comments on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and

>>>>>the same implemented with ASP.NET.
>>>>>
>>>>>Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could

>>>>>find some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks.
>>>>>
>>>>>I know itīs hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real 
>>>>>developers would be of great value. The main functionality of the web

>>>>>application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well... let's start off with the fact that MS is NOT secure.  If 
>>>>security is an issue, then MS's record to date is very worrisome.  Yes, 
>>>>they've cleaned up their act a bit... however their problems are very 
>>>>deep in the fundamental way they do things.  You can find some good 
>>>>discussions elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>>Engineering would be next.  In general the J2EE world's core tends to be 
>>>>better engineered.  EJB being something of an exception, depending on 
>>>>who you talk to.  I've seen more discussions of best practices and 
>>>>patterns on J2EE lists then I have on .Net lists.  This may be more 
>>>>because I haven't chosen high quality lists.   This may also be due to 
>>>>the higher incidence of trained monkey's in the MS world then software 
>>>>engineered.
>>>>
>>>>Trained monkey's would be next.  MS seems to attract developers who 
>>>>don't have any true understanding of how things work.  I'm not sure why. 
>>>>  It might be because they've made it so point and click that no one 
>>>>really understands what's going on, and even if they did they might not 
>>>>be able to do anything about it.  I've seen far more "How do I show 
>>>>1,000 items in a drop down list box?" type questions on MS lists then I 
>>>>have on Java lists.  THe few I have seen, have all come from MS 
>>>>developers.  MS has focused on providing cheap easy solutions, which is 
>>>>fine for the single computer model the has dominated so much of MS's 
>>>>history.  There are very few cheap and easy solutions when developing 
>>>>enterprise wide software.
>>>>
>>>>Last, and to a large degree, the most important is choice.  I don't have 
>>>>to use Sun's VM.  I don't have to use implementation of the JSP/Servlet 
>>>>spec.  I don't have to use IBM's implementation either.  I'm not tied to 
>>>>a database (ODBC is _NOT_ what I would call good database independance) 
>>>>vendor.  I'm not tied to an OS Vendor, which means I'm not tied to a 
>>>>hardware platform.  You can't run .Net on Sun, or AS400's or any 
>>>>hardware other then Intel.  All of this means one thing... I can 
>>>>customize any Java based solution to fit any need.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Thanks in regards
>>>>>Anders
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>Please post on Rich Internet Applications User Interface (RiA/SoA)
>>><http://www.portalvu.com>
>>>
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>>
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