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Message-ID: <20030711203519.55942.qmail@web20701.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:35:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Graham <grahamdavid1980@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: dgraham@apache.org
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
To: Struts Users Mailing List <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
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--- "Davidson, Glenn" <Glenn.Davidson@tiaa-cref.org> wrote:
> David,
> Thanks David, I do stand corrected. I must have misread some of the
> earlier
> emails, so the offensive tags are part of the JSTL. Since it the JSTL is
> coming from Sun it is not surprising that is includes some garbage. I
> still
> saw some fine folks arguing in favor of these features. 

There's no point in complaining about JSTL sql tags on the Struts users
mailing list.  We can't remove them from the taglib but we can choose to
not use them.  The JSTL's sql tags have their place in very small apps and
proof-of-concept apps.  If they bring more people to the Java platform, I
consider them a worthwhile addition.  However, I choose not to use them as
they lead to unmaintainable apps.

David

> What about JSF,
> will
> there be support in JSF for embedding business or data logic into the
> presentation layer? If so why?
> 
> Glenn
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham [mailto:grahamdavid1980@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:07 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> 
> 
> --- "Davidson, Glenn" <Glenn.Davidson@tiaa-cref.org> wrote:
> > I recently saw the term "Dog Food" and found it amusing. I might not
> be
> > using it correctly in this context ( I just might be eating some dog
> > food
> > with my prior email :-) ) . What I was trying to get across is that
> just
> > because there are other languages/technologies that allow programmers
> to
> > build applications in a poor manner, that in itself should not be used
> > to
> > justify the addition of features that would allow Struts based
> > applications
> > to be built in the same manner. I chose struts as the framework for
> our
> > web
> > development specifically because it didn't allow the type of mixing of
> > logic
> > and presentation that was mentioned earlier in this thread. If I
> wanted
> > to
> > mix logic and presentation I would use PHP, it makes it very easy to
> do
> > that. If struts is going to be MVC, then let's keep it MVC. 
> 
> This discussion has had little to do with Struts and much to do with the
> JSTL.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Lowe [mailto:mark.lowe@talk21.com]
> > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:30 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> > 
> > 
> > I'm familiar with the tech idiom "dog-food" .. but I have no idea what
> 
> > it is you're talking about please can you explain what you understand 
> > by dog-food coding?
> > 
> > If your saying what I think you are are you sure you're not choking on
> 
> > some?
> > 
> > 
> > On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:
> > 
> > > Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a
> > joke.
> > > There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this
> 
> > > should
> > > not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I 
> > > understand
> > > that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has 
> > > shown
> > > that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog 
> > > Food"
> > > features you become the technology providers that you currently make
> 
> > > fun of.
> > > I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food" 
> > > features.
> > > Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been
> 
> > > solid.
> > > No "Dog Food" please!
> > >
> > > Glenn
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:mark_galbreath@qat.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
> > > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > > Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> > >
> > >
> > > I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags
> 
> > > to get
> > > access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting
> yourself...this
> > 
> > > is
> > > exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming
> practice!
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:craigmcc@apache.org]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM
> > >
> > > On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:
> > >
> > >> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
> > >> From: David Geary <sabreware@earthlink.net>
> > >> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List
> <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >> To: Struts Users Mailing List <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> > >>
> > >> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced
> > >>> JavaServer Pages?"
> > >>
> > >> Yes.
> > >
> > > David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's
> on
> > 
> > > the
> > > JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.
> > >
> > > I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating 
> > > ones) in
> > > JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch
> > of
> > > developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development
> (VB,
> > 
> > > PHP,
> > > PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups
> to
> > > ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not
> like
> > 
> > > what
> > > people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group 
> > > creating
> > > the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.
> > >
> > > Beyond that, it *is* feasible to separate business logic and 
> > > presentation
> > > logic into separate JSP pages, and enjoy the fact that the page is
> > > automatically recompiled without needing the app to be restarted.  
> > > Couple
> > > that with the fact that Struts lets you say that a particular
> <action>
> > > really does a RequestDispatcher.include(), and you've suddenly got
> the
> > > ability to program Actions as JSP pages ... sort of a mind twisting
> > > approach, but it seems like it would be feasible in scenarios where
> > the
> > > business logic is simple enough to be scripted in JSP tags that are 
> > > only
> > > used for their side effects, not for their output (which would get 
> > > thrown
> > > away anyway when Struts ultimately forwards to the presentation
> JSP). 
> > 
> > > In
> > > such a scenario, having SQL access tags would make a lot of sense.
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> david
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > 
> > 
> 
=== message truncated ===


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