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From David Graham <grahamdavid1...@yahoo.com>
Subject RE: Struts MVC framework similar to that of a servlet container?
Date Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:23:19 GMT
--- Ranko Bijelonic <rbijelonic@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> >You could certainly code each Action as a Servlet but it would take
> more
> >work.
> 
> I'm not sure exactely how it would take more work (provided there were
> Struts like utils writen one time).

But there aren't so it would take more work.

> 
> >You've mentioned changing the Servlet spec several times and seem to be
> >under the impression that it's easy to do.  Open source software has
> >certain advantages over standards because it is easier to try new
> things.
> >It's *much* easier to change Struts than to change any Java
> specification
> >including Servlets.  But you should notice the huge influence OSS and
> >Struts in particular has had over the standard technologies.  Struts
> >directly contributed to JSF and JSTL with ideas and pressure to make
> the
> >standards better than the Struts version.  IMO, that's a much more
> >effective way of changing things for the better.
> 
> Yes, that is true.  We definitely benefited from Struts in many ways. 
> But
> it just seems to be getting too encompasing. Now we have declarative
> exception handling that is configured in struts-config.xml, and we have
> it
> ( a weaker version maybe) in web.xml.  
> Struts is becoming kind of self
> sufficient where everything is done through it even if it already can be
> done through something else.  Its like a little container itself.  But
> maybe
> i'm just temporarily mad :).

Struts relies on many standard Java technologies as well as Jakarta
Commons code.

David

> 
> ranko
> 
> 
> >
> > ranko
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Adam Levine [mailto:adam_l_levine@hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 12:49 PM
> > > To: struts-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > > Subject: RE: Struts MVC framework similar to that of a servlet
> > > container?
> > >
> > >
> > > for my $0.02.
> > >
> > >    Using just pure servlet and base JSP, dealing with forms is not
> > > intuitive
> > > or clean.  You either rely on too much code in a JSP, or too much
> > > reading
> > > and parsing at the start of your servlets.  And, the development
> cycle
> > > increases as your changes increase.  I find the Struts mode to be
> > clean
> > > and
> > > simple.  Need to change a field, add a field.  Change one class (the
> > > ActionForm, or not at all with a dynaform), modify the .jsp
> > > presentation.
> > > And then account for the field change in the business logic. 
> Combine
> > it
> > > with XDoclet, and you've got immediate Data/Value Objects that can
> be
> > > generated from the ActionForm itself, ready to be passed back to
> your
> > > EJB
> > > level code (using CMP, you never have to account for the field in
> the
> > > logic,
> > > unless you're doing business level decisions).
> > >    The mechanisms in place for detailing messages back to the user
> > (ie,
> > > ActionErrors) are very clean, easly integrated with field-specific
> > > messages.
> > >   Seamless integration with Java's i18n functionality.
> > >
> > > >>   I'm looking for the reasons why this would not be the case.
> > >
> > > Are you looking for where using the base Sevlet layer is more
> > > advantageous
> > > over using Struts? Or, are you looking for areas that Struts just
> > > doesn't
> > > handle, leaving a gaping hole?   Are you being persnickity, or is
> > there
> > > a
> > > serious question/concern ?
> > >
> > > From: "Ranko Bijelonic" <rbijelonic@yahoo.com>
> > > Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
> <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > Subject: RE: Struts MVC framework similar to that of a servlet
> > > container?
> > > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:38:22 -0400
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes Struts does definitely solve many problems and make it easier.
> > But
> > > is
> > > seems that it solves a lot of problems that are already solved.  I'm
> > > looking
> > > for the reasons why this would not be the case.  Thanks for the
> help,
> > >
> > > ranko
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Sandeep Takhar [mailto:sandeep_takhar@yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 11:21 AM
> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > Subject: RE: Struts MVC framework similar to that of a servlet
> > > container?
> > >
> > >
> > > I guess the main difference between what you mention
> > > and struts is that you can use this stuff right away
> > > for the app you want to build without modification.
> > >
> > > As long as you understand the concepts you can apply
> > > them.  Similar to how you understand a servlet/filter
> > > spec.  Now you have common problems solved.
> > >
> > > You don't have to code them or copy and paste from
> > > somewhere.
> > >
> > > You also have the ability to auto-populate to lists
> > > which is pretty neat.
> > >
> > > sandeep
> > > --- Ranko Bijelonic <rbijelonic@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >  > > there's a lot of stuff it gives you out of the
> > >  > box.
> > >  >
> > >  > > 1. solid code
> > >  > so does the container i guess.
> > >  >
> > >  > >2. validation framework
> > >  > This is one of those changes that could be added by
> > >  > way of utility classes.
> > >  > Have that Filter that autopopulates, check for
> > >  > correct types like Struts.
> > >  >
> > >  > >3. tile framework
> > >  > You can use it without Struts
> > >  >
> > >  > > 4. auto-population framework
> > >  > It should be easy to add a Filter that autopopulates
> > >  > a configured form (not
> > >  > every time but as a standard).
> > >  >
> > >  > > 5. role based actions
> > >  > I'm not sure what this is.
> > >  >
> > >  > >6. xml configuration of all the links or actions of
> > >  > your application
> > >  > So does web.xml i guess.
> > >  >
> > >  > >7. best practices framework bundling (scaffolding)
> > >  > complete with examples (many years of experience
> > >  > went
> > >  > into this one).
> > >  > Same thing as above.  There are tutorials, examples,
> > >  > etc...
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  > > 8. ease of use
> > >  > If you think of a Servlet as an Action its kind of
> > >  > as easy.  Except for some
> > >  > repetative tasks that I would include to complete
> > >  > the servlet spec (rather
> > >  > than rewrite some of the container functionality to
> > >  > add those utils).
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  > -----Original Message-----
> > >  > From: rajendra.x.yadav@verizon.com
> > >  > [mailto:rajendra.x.yadav@verizon.com]
> > >  > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:42 AM
> > >  > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > >  > Subject: Re: Struts MVC framework similar to that of
> > >  > a servlet
> > >  > container?
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  > Sandeep,
> > >  > You mentioned role based actions in your list...
> > >  > which has caught my eye.
> > >  > Can you please elaborate on this ? Or point me to
> > >  > some documentation ?
> > >  >
> > >  > thanks
> > >  > -raj
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >                       "Sandeep Takhar"
> 
=== message truncated ===


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