I agree (even when I know I should leave the View to a Designer). I think any good Web Developer should know HTML (and some Javascript :)). Designers are important, but one must be able to be self-sufficient. Of course, that's my point of view . In Fact, thats why I like JSPs Technology; because you can also get involved in some 'design stuff' (plus, you don't need to compile on your own). That's my personal opinion and I know many people may not agree :). Regards. Luis Olivares. Infosphere S.A. de C.V. tel 8365-42-88 ext. 107. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Assenza, Chris" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Taglibs decrease the separation between designer and developer? > That's a good point, but what about when your scriptlets are controlling the > presentation? Ie. you've got dynamic row changes, or entirely different > tables of output being displayed depending on a flag on the request > (assuming you can't generecize the output) - and the designer needs to > change the HTML output by those scriptlets? > > Frankly, I don't mean to diminish the role of the designer (someone I find > to be incredibly important) but I generally would not let them edit JSP's at > all taglibs or not, unless they had experience with JSP or ASP. While it > may not be ideal or efficient to do so, I find that it is much better for > the designers to provide me with a mockup and I'll deal with the HTML. It > gives developers much more control and flexibility - and then all these > issues are moot. Plus, it gives you the added bonus of avoiding the demons > that are WYSIWYG web development tools (hehe, I'm known lovingly as the > "HTML snob" by one of my uncles who happens to be a designer). > > Unfortunately, not every developer knows HTML well so it involves more > responsibility for the developer then may actually be good, possible or > practical, but for me personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. :) > > -Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Maletic [mailto:greg.maletic@ZeroG.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 1:15 PM > To: struts-user@jakarta.apache.org > Subject: Taglibs decrease the separation between designer and developer? > > > Your post brings up a good point concerning what I think is a false > assumption concerning the separation between designer and developer. > > Despite the potential good uses that taglibs can be put to, HTML pages with > JSP scriptlets are, I believe, easier to read by web designers than pages > with Struts taglibs. (The one caveat being the one I mentioned before--that > ONLY view logic--and not business logic--should reside in scriptlets.) My > reasoning--and experience--is that when I simply used JSPs, I told our > designer to completely ignore the stuff inside the "<% %>"s and code around > them. Things were fine. > > Now that we're using Struts, I have to instruct our designer on the ins and > outs of a completely new set of pseudo-HTML tags that he doesn't understand > at all--and NOT to use the tags he's familiar with ("
", "", > etc.) > > It was much easier for both him and me before we made this switch. Struts > taglibs--and other taglibs--introduce, in essence, yet another language that > we all have to learn. > > > ====================================== > Greg Maletic > Chief Technical Officer > Zero G Software, Inc. > 514 Bryant Street > San Francisco, CA 94107 > > tel: +1.415.512.7771 x303 > fax: +1.415.723.7244 > mailto:greg@ZeroG.com > http://www.ZeroG.com > > The leading provider of multi-platform software deployment solutions. > ====================================== > > > -----Original Message----- > From: struts-user-return-14335-greg.maletic=zerog.com@jakarta.apache.org > [mailto:struts-user-return-14335-greg.maletic=zerog.com@jakarta.apache.o > rg]On Behalf Of Tim Colson > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:57 AM > To: struts-user@jakarta.apache.org > Subject: HTML in Taglibs (was: some comparision between JSP/struts & > velocity) > > > > Niall wrote: > > Sorry, I couldnt disagree with you more. > > Custom tags are exactly the place to put html - they are part of the view, > > Heh heh... I never said definitively that they weren't, just that in the > particular situation we had - it seemed like a bad idea. The bits in > question were definitively Designer territory. > > BTW - you are correct when saying this was/is part of the View. However, > part of the separation I'm striving for is between Designer and Developer > roles. And I hope you'll agree with me that a TagLib isn't something a > Designer would likely build. > > > if you look at struts html tags thats what they do. > Yes. I understand. And honestly, it makes me a trifle uneasy. ;-) > > Real example - I had a Designer chap get stumped because the html:form > attribute "name" didn't actually map directly to the "name" of the "real > html form". When he tried to connect a javascript function to an element in > the form - he didn't know the name of the form. When he reasoned, "oh, I'll > just name my html:form 'bleckfoo', just like I would if it was standard > HTML... following: > > > Error Location: Edit.jsp Internal Servlet Error: > > javax.servlet.ServletException: Must specify type attribute if name is > specified > > at org.apache.jasper.runtime.PageContextImpl.handlePageException > > (PageContextImpl.java:459) > > at jsp._0002fjsp_0002fEdit_0002ejspEdit_jsp_2._jspService > > (_0002fjsp_0002fEdit_0002ejspEdit_jsp_2.java:344) > > (That was a fun one to explain - lemme tell ya. ;-) > > > My point - hiding complexity won't always make things simpler. > > To my Designer colleague, the fact that the associates a Form bean with the form elements, as well as doing other nifty > things for him/her behind the scenes didn't matter. What mattered was that > they knew how to do HTML, and they were stumped about how to make this > "Struts thingy" work. > > To which I have to reassure him that "Struts" is a good thing - it's the > darn JSP's that are a bit cumbersome. ;-) > > Cheers, > Tim > > > >