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From "Kyle Brown" <brown...@us.ibm.com>
Subject RE: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)
Date Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:43:13 GMT
Christian,

     I still don't think you're reaching the right point.  Ted has tried to
make the point that the distinction is either:

     (a) If you use JSP's then you're insane if you don't use Struts

     (b) If you don't use JSP's you're equally insane to try to use Struts.

     The choice really comes down to JSP or no JSP.  It's not "page author"
or "java developer". Both roles are needed to build a Struts application.
In applications that don't use JSP's, there may not be a distinction there.
It's a deeper issue that goes into the structure of your team, the style of
your application, the amount of reuse you intend to get across
applications, and the tooling that your team uses (and your company may
mandate).

Kyle Brown
Executive Java Consultant
IBM WebSphere Services



"Christian Cryder" <christianc@enhydra.org> on 08/28/2001 03:28:07 PM

Please respond to struts-user@jakarta.apache.org

To:   <struts-user@jakarta.apache.org>
cc:
Subject:  RE: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)



Hi Chris,

Yeah, upon re-reading I definitely can see your point. Certainly not my
intention to demean anyone. And, upon further reflection, I probably need
to
qualify my statements about Struts' target audience as well...let's see if
you find this any better:

--------------
The Barracuda Presentation framework is built as a series of layers that
depend on the Servlet 2.2+ API, each of which can be used independently of
one another. In terms of audience, Barracuda definitely aims at the Java
Developer end of the spectrum (with the idea that tools integration will
ultimately make the approach more accessible to Page Author types).

...<snip>...

Unlike Barracuda, Struts is aimed primarily at the Page Author types. This
is not to say that Struts does not require Java coding--after all, you
still
need developer types to implement Tag libraries and write Controller code.
Rather it aims to suggest that it is Page Authors who will get the most
mileage from the framework; if you do not adopt a JSP strategy for
rendering
views, the value of Struts is greatly diminished.
--------------

Does this help at all? Or am I just making everyone mad?

I'm not trying to demean Struts or Page Authors here, but rather to
illustrate a subtle-yet-significant (in my mind at least). It seems to me
that Struts doesn't offer a whole lot for those who don't want to go the
JSP
route. This seems to be evidenced by the fact (at least in my perception)
that there are not many people using Struts who are not ALSO using JSPs.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, after all, the converse is equally
true--Barracuda doesn't offer much if you ARE committed to JSPs. I'm just
trying to explain why I feel that Struts is more oriented towards page
author types.

Christian
------------------------------------------------
Christian Cryder [christianc@enhydra.org]
Barracuda - MVC Component Framework for Webapps
http://barracuda.enhydra.org
------------------------------------------------
        "What a great time to be a Geek"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assenza, Chris [mailto:cassenza@Accessdc.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 1:34 PM
> To: 'struts-user@jakarta.apache.org'
> Subject: RE: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)
>
>
> I haven't read it all yet (and would like to - Barracuda looks
> intriguing),
> but:
>
> "Barracuda definitely aims at the Java Developer end of the spectrum
(with
> the idea that tools integration will ultimately bridge the gap to less
> sophisticated Page Author types)."
>
> ...
>
> "Unlike Barracuda, Struts is aimed squarely at the Page Author types"
>
> "Less sophisticated" sounds really arrogant, demeaning and is
> clearly biased
> - and that's not even the meat of the presentation. :p
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended nor do I think anyone should be, but
> that tone so early on changed my perception almost instantaneously.
There
> are better ways to say what you are trying to communicate IMO, and little
> phrases like that really do count.
>
> Best,
>
> -Chris
>
> Christopher Assenza
> Phone:  412.201.6026
> Fax:     412.201.6060
> Email:  cassenza@accessdc.com
> ACCESSDATA
> Moving Your Business from Point A to Point e.SM
> http://www.accessdc.com/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Cryder [mailto:christianc@enhydra.org]
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 3:31 PM
> To: Struts-User
> Subject: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I've put together a fairly detailed architectural comparison of Struts
vs.
> Barracuda:
> http://barracuda.enhydra.org/cvs_source/Barracuda/docs/barracuda_v
s_struts.h
tml

While I've tried to keep the document fair and even-handed, it's quite
possible that I've not given Struts a fair shake (since I don't know Struts
that well after all). At any rate, I wanted to give you Struts experts a
chance to review the document and correct any misunderstandings I might
have. If you think I've really botched something, please let me know and
I'll try to make it better. My goal here is to represent both frameworks as
accurately as possible.

Thanks much,
Christian
------------------------------------------------
Christian Cryder [christianc@enhydra.org]
Barracuda - MVC Component Framework for Webapps
http://barracuda.enhydra.org
------------------------------------------------
        "What a great time to be a Geek"




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