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From "Christian Cryder" <christi...@enhydra.org>
Subject RE: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)
Date Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:37:40 GMT
Hi guys,

Carl George said...
> Your not making anyone (if a may speak for everyone) mad, your just wrong!

Well that's good at least ;-)

Dave added...
> But not sure why people using jsp's for view are "Page Author
> Types".  I am certainly not!!  I am a developer, but jsp's are my
> view of choice.  Struts provides the framework which otherwise
> I would have to write, to enable me to use jsp's correctly.

Hmmm, maybe I'm a victim of poor terminology.

When I say 'Page Author' types, I'm referring to approaches which are
primarily page based, that is: they tend to start with the concepts of "a
web page" and then move on to address the question of "how do we get dynamic
data into that page"...usually its by inserting some kind of tags into the
markup page. In this view, an "application" has a tendency to be viewed as a
collection of pages. As I suggest at the top of the document, I think this
general category includes far more than just JSPs.

In contrast to this I'm conjuring up a category called "Java Developer"
types where the application tends to be viewed more in terms of a mass of
code that happens to be capable of generating pages in response to http
requests.

This is obviously a generalization. You will have 'Page Author' types who
still write Java. And you will have 'Java Developer' types who will still
deal with markup. Perhaps a better line of demarcation is: what do they
spend most of their time writing? In the "Java Developer" camp I think you
tend to find webapps where virtually all server-side logic is expressed in
Java. In the "Page Author" camp I think you tend to find webapps that
consist of some Java, but also have an awful lot of logic expressed in
something else (usually some kind of tags embedded in markup...JSPs, ASPs,
and various other template approaches all fit this bill).

Finally, Kyle said:

> (a) If you use JSP's then you're insane if you don't use Struts
> (b) If you don't use JSP's you're equally insane to try to
>     use Struts.
>
>      The choice really comes down to JSP or no JSP.  It's not
> "page author" or "java developer".

I understand that Struts utilizes both roles. I'm just trying to make the
point that the main value in Struts is for the "page author" role. I don't
think it just an issue of JSP or not...I see very little architectural
distinction between JSP, ASP, and custom "pull-mvc" templating approaches.
So I'm looking for a term that encompasses the commonality of those
approaches...the centrality appears to be the idea of putting stuff in the
page along with the client side markup.

I'm not sure whether this explanation is helping or just making the waters
muddier. Hopefully you can at least see the distinction that I'm trying to
draw. If someone can suggest more appropriate terminology, I'm all ears.

Thanks for the good comments...
Christian
------------------------------------------------
Christian Cryder [christianc@enhydra.org]
Barracuda - MVC Component Framework for Webapps
http://barracuda.enhydra.org
------------------------------------------------
        "What a great time to be a Geek"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: George, Carl [mailto:Carl.George@pfizer.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 1:44 PM
> To: 'struts-user@jakarta.apache.org'
> Subject: RE: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)
>
>
> Your not making anyone (if a may speak for everyone) mad, your just wrong!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Cryder [mailto:christianc@enhydra.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 3:28 PM
> To: struts-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)
>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> Yeah, upon re-reading I definitely can see your point. Certainly not my
> intention to demean anyone. And, upon further reflection, I
> probably need to
> qualify my statements about Struts' target audience as well...let's see if
> you find this any better:
>
> --------------
> The Barracuda Presentation framework is built as a series of layers that
> depend on the Servlet 2.2+ API, each of which can be used independently of
> one another. In terms of audience, Barracuda definitely aims at the Java
> Developer end of the spectrum (with the idea that tools integration will
> ultimately make the approach more accessible to Page Author types).
>
> ...<snip>...
>
> Unlike Barracuda, Struts is aimed primarily at the Page Author types. This
> is not to say that Struts does not require Java coding--after
> all, you still
> need developer types to implement Tag libraries and write Controller code.
> Rather it aims to suggest that it is Page Authors who will get the most
> mileage from the framework; if you do not adopt a JSP strategy
> for rendering
> views, the value of Struts is greatly diminished.
> --------------
>
> Does this help at all? Or am I just making everyone mad?
>
> I'm not trying to demean Struts or Page Authors here, but rather to
> illustrate a subtle-yet-significant (in my mind at least). It seems to me
> that Struts doesn't offer a whole lot for those who don't want to
> go the JSP
> route. This seems to be evidenced by the fact (at least in my perception)
> that there are not many people using Struts who are not ALSO using JSPs.
>
> This is not necessarily a bad thing, after all, the converse is equally
> true--Barracuda doesn't offer much if you ARE committed to JSPs. I'm just
> trying to explain why I feel that Struts is more oriented towards page
> author types.
>
> Christian
> ------------------------------------------------
> Christian Cryder [christianc@enhydra.org]
> Barracuda - MVC Component Framework for Webapps
> http://barracuda.enhydra.org
> ------------------------------------------------
>         "What a great time to be a Geek"
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assenza, Chris [mailto:cassenza@Accessdc.com]
> > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 1:34 PM
> > To: 'struts-user@jakarta.apache.org'
> > Subject: RE: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)
> >
> >
> > I haven't read it all yet (and would like to - Barracuda looks
> > intriguing),
> > but:
> >
> > "Barracuda definitely aims at the Java Developer end of the
> spectrum (with
> > the idea that tools integration will ultimately bridge the gap to less
> > sophisticated Page Author types)."
> >
> > ...
> >
> > "Unlike Barracuda, Struts is aimed squarely at the Page Author types"
> >
> > "Less sophisticated" sounds really arrogant, demeaning and is
> > clearly biased
> > - and that's not even the meat of the presentation. :p
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended nor do I think anyone
> should be, but
> > that tone so early on changed my perception almost
> instantaneously.  There
> > are better ways to say what you are trying to communicate IMO,
> and little
> > phrases like that really do count.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> > Christopher Assenza
> > Phone:	412.201.6026
> > Fax:     412.201.6060
> > Email:	cassenza@accessdc.com
> > ACCESSDATA
> > Moving Your Business from Point A to Point e.SM
> > http://www.accessdc.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christian Cryder [mailto:christianc@enhydra.org]
> > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 3:31 PM
> > To: Struts-User
> > Subject: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)
> >
> >
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I've put together a fairly detailed architectural comparison of
> Struts vs.
> > Barracuda:
> > http://barracuda.enhydra.org/cvs_source/Barracuda/docs/barracuda_v
> s_struts.h
> tml
>
> While I've tried to keep the document fair and even-handed, it's quite
> possible that I've not given Struts a fair shake (since I don't
> know Struts
> that well after all). At any rate, I wanted to give you Struts experts a
> chance to review the document and correct any misunderstandings I might
> have. If you think I've really botched something, please let me know and
> I'll try to make it better. My goal here is to represent both
> frameworks as
> accurately as possible.
>
> Thanks much,
> Christian
> ------------------------------------------------
> Christian Cryder [christianc@enhydra.org]
> Barracuda - MVC Component Framework for Webapps
> http://barracuda.enhydra.org
> ------------------------------------------------
>         "What a great time to be a Geek"


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