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From "Kusch, John" <John.Ku...@KRAFT.COM>
Subject RE: Taglibs decrease the separation between designer and develope r?
Date Wed, 01 Aug 2001 19:32:18 GMT
I'm sure that this e-mail group is heavier on the Java/JSP developers than
it is on designers, so I'll throw out this question: isn't anything that
creates visual presentation of information considered "design"?  While Java
(Servlets) and the Struts framework create information and functionality,
it's HTML, scripting and taglibs that facilitate visual presentation.  To
me, that's a pretty clear separation between "development" and "design".  If
you argue that it's a waste of time to teach a designer the Struts taglibs,
I think it's fair to ask whether designers should even bother learning HMTL.

Most designers involved with the web are perfectly capable of handling
programming basics, from HTML to server-side scripting.  I think it
under-sells the abilities of most web designers to imply that Struts is too
much for them.  If it's difficult to explain Struts to a designer, the
answer isn't relegating the designer to the role of a "mockup artist" ---
it's training.  I'd think that most developers have enough on their hands
that they wouldn't mind relegating the JSP end of things to a competent and
informed designer.  The designer gets more freedom to control presentation,
and the developer gets to focus on development.

--John Kusch

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Clinton []
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: Taglibs decrease the separation between designer and

    I think you are exagerating a bit when you say that "Struts 
taglibs--and other taglibs--introduce, in essence, yet another language 
that we all have to learn."  Comparing a handful of scripting tags that, 
for the most part, correspond directly to existing html tags to the 
learning of a language is a bit much.
    That said, if your designer is unable to understand struts tags, I 
would recommend that you ask him not to touch them.  I don't understand 
why you would feel the need to teach a designer "the ins and outs" of 
Struts tags.  Maybe you could try something like this: design the app, 
using completely stripped jsp pages.  Ask your designer to do the 
interface, then put the tags in his interface.  If the designer needs 
control of the presentation of html contained within custom tags, use 
style sheets.
    Also, if you honestly do feel that things were easier without 
struts, don't use it.  It is not a part of the servlet/jsp spec or 
anything, and its use is completely optional.  But I would urge you to 
stick with it a little more.  I think its many advantages far outweigh 
the small learning curve.

Greg Maletic wrote:

> Now that we're using Struts, I have to instruct our designer on the ins
> outs of a completely new set of pseudo-HTML tags that he doesn't
> at all--and NOT to use the tags he's familiar with ("<form>", "<head>",
> etc.)
> It was much easier for both him and me before we made this switch.  Struts
> taglibs--and other taglibs--introduce, in essence, yet another language
> we all have to learn.

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