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From "Luis Olivares" <>
Subject Re: Taglibs decrease the separation between designer and developer?
Date Wed, 01 Aug 2001 19:37:33 GMT
I agree (even when I know I should leave the View to a Designer).

I think any good Web Developer should know HTML (and some Javascript :)).
Designers are important, but one must be able to be self-sufficient. Of
course, that's my point of view .

In Fact, thats why I like JSPs Technology; because you can also get involved
in some 'design stuff' (plus, you don't need to compile on your own).

That's my personal opinion and I know many people may not agree :).


Luis Olivares.
Infosphere S.A. de C.V.
tel 8365-42-88 ext. 107.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Assenza, Chris" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: Taglibs decrease the separation between designer and developer?

> That's a good point, but what about when your scriptlets are controlling
> presentation? Ie. you've got dynamic row changes, or entirely different
> tables of output being displayed depending on a flag on the request
> (assuming you can't generecize the output) - and the designer needs to
> change the HTML output by those scriptlets?
> Frankly, I don't mean to diminish the role of the designer (someone I find
> to be incredibly important) but I generally would not let them edit JSP's
> all taglibs or not, unless they had experience with JSP or ASP.  While it
> may not be ideal or efficient to do so, I find that it is much better for
> the designers to provide me with a mockup and I'll deal with the HTML.  It
> gives developers much more control and flexibility - and then all these
> issues are moot. Plus, it gives you the added bonus of avoiding the demons
> that are WYSIWYG web development tools (hehe, I'm known lovingly as the
> "HTML snob" by one of my uncles who happens to be a designer).
> Unfortunately, not every developer knows HTML well so it involves more
> responsibility for the developer then may actually be good, possible or
> practical, but for me personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. :)
> -Chris
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Maletic []
> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 1:15 PM
> To:
> Subject: Taglibs decrease the separation between designer and developer?
> Your post brings up a good point concerning what I think is a false
> assumption concerning the separation between designer and developer.
> Despite the potential good uses that taglibs can be put to, HTML pages
> JSP scriptlets are, I believe, easier to read by web designers than pages
> with Struts taglibs.  (The one caveat being the one I mentioned
> ONLY view logic--and not business logic--should reside in scriptlets.)  My
> reasoning--and experience--is that when I simply used JSPs, I told our
> designer to completely ignore the stuff inside the "<% %>"s and code
> them.  Things were fine.
> Now that we're using Struts, I have to instruct our designer on the ins
> outs of a completely new set of pseudo-HTML tags that he doesn't
> at all--and NOT to use the tags he's familiar with ("<form>", "<head>",
> etc.)
> It was much easier for both him and me before we made this switch.  Struts
> taglibs--and other taglibs--introduce, in essence, yet another language
> we all have to learn.
> ======================================
> Greg Maletic
> Chief Technical Officer
> Zero G Software, Inc.
> 514 Bryant Street
> San Francisco, CA 94107
> tel: +1.415.512.7771 x303
> fax: +1.415.723.7244
> <>
> <>
> The leading provider of multi-platform software deployment solutions.
> ======================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [
> rg]On Behalf Of Tim Colson
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:57 AM
> To:
> Subject: HTML in Taglibs (was: some comparision between JSP/struts &
> velocity)
> Niall wrote:
> > Sorry, I couldnt disagree with you more.
> > Custom tags are exactly the place to put html - they are part of the
> Heh heh... I never said definitively that they weren't, just that in the
> particular situation we had - it seemed like a bad idea. The bits in
> question were definitively Designer territory.
> BTW - you are correct when saying this was/is part of the View. However,
> part of the separation I'm striving for is between Designer and Developer
> roles. And I hope you'll agree with me that a TagLib isn't something a
> Designer would likely build. <grin>
> > if you look at struts html tags thats what they do.
> Yes. I understand. And honestly, it makes me a trifle uneasy. ;-)
> Real example - I had a Designer chap get stumped because the html:form
> attribute "name" didn't actually map directly to the "name" of the "real
> html form". When he tried to connect a javascript function to an element
> the form - he didn't know the name of the form. When he reasoned, "oh,
> just name my html:form 'bleckfoo', just like I would if it was standard
> HTML... <html:form name="bleckfoo"... He got a lovely error similar to the
> following:
> > Error Location: Edit.jsp Internal Servlet Error:
> > javax.servlet.ServletException: Must specify type attribute if name is
> specified
> > at org.apache.jasper.runtime.PageContextImpl.handlePageException
> > (
> > at jsp._0002fjsp_0002fEdit_0002ejspEdit_jsp_2._jspService
> > (
> (That was a fun one to explain - lemme tell ya. <grin> ;-)
> My point - hiding complexity won't always make things simpler.
> To my Designer colleague, the fact that the <html:form automagically
> associates a Form bean with the form elements, as well as doing other
> things for him/her behind the scenes didn't matter. What mattered was that
> they knew how to do HTML, and they were stumped about how to make this
> "Struts thingy" work.
> To which I have to reassure him that "Struts" is a good thing - it's the
> darn JSP's that are a bit cumbersome. ;-)
> Cheers,
> Tim

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