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From "Toni Charlot" <>
Subject RE: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)
Date Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:04:57 GMT
I'll have to agree with Ted on this one.  I do think Struts and
Barracuda are in the same category.  One can argue that Barracuda
enforces the separation of model and view more strictly by not using JSP.

Some developers like myself, may appreciate the freedom of choice.  They
are indeed times when it's necessary to break the clean pattern, even
in order to meet deadlines or for quick demos and presentations.

I think the main problem we've been running into here is the title of the
Barracuda vs. Struts maybe should be Barracuda compared to Struts.

The title and the tone of the write up was basically saying struts is bad
and Barracuda
is good.  A struts users' list is not the best place for such discussions.
Of course
a lot of struts developers will get upset.

Christian I appreciate the write up because I was impressed at how well the
was written.  But show the differences and not focus on the advertising
"Barracuda is
much better than struts".  I thank you for wanting to give a fair

Barracuda as well as struts has a lot of evolving to do.  For now, I think
struts is
further along.

The Struts guys deserve a big CONGRATULATIONS for having such a useful
product at
only version 1.0.

Great work at Barracuda as well, I sure hope to have a chance to work on a
effort between the two frameworks in order to merge the "commons" a la


-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Husted []
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Barracuda vs. Struts (request for review)

> I understand that Struts utilizes both roles. I'm just trying to make the
> point that the main value in Struts is for the "page author" role. I don't
> think it just an issue of JSP or not...I see very little architectural
> distinction between JSP, ASP, and custom "pull-mvc" templating approaches.
> So I'm looking for a term that encompasses the commonality of those
> approaches...the centrality appears to be the idea of putting stuff in the
> page along with the client side markup.

The problem is that you may be lumping Struts in with Cold Fusion, ASP,
and Model 1 JSP. While Struts uses JSP, it does not encourage people to
use them the way ASPs or Cold Fusion pages are used, or even Model 1

Honestly, I think Struts and Barracuda are in the same category here.
The contrast being something like Dreamweaver UltraDev.

> I'm afraid I don't follow this at all. The point I am attempting to make
> #2 is that even if developers don't use scriptlets, the use of tag-libs
> least if you use conditionals or iterative tags) effectively mixes
> "programming logic" in with your markup. While I have heard this justified
> by calling it "presentation logic" (thereby it's ok to mix it in), in my
> mind its not compelling--the tags logic is evaluated and processed on the
> server, the markup on the client. To me this breaks the clean separation
> (and as such its a valid criticm).

Personally, if I'm betting my job on the choice of a presentation
technology, whether or not it "enforces" the separation of model and
view, or "prohibits" logical constructs, would be on the bottom of my
list. All else being equal, that's something I can enforce on my own. In
fact, I may actually want the option of a quick fix. Some ship dates
can't slip, and I may need every resource ;-)

I would be the first to argue that tiers are good, but that last to
argue that we need shackles to get people to use them.


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