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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 09:12:30 -0800
From: "Nathan Bubna" <nbubna@gmail.com>
To: "Struts Developers List" <dev@struts.apache.org>
Subject: Re: [tiles2] Tiles TLP and Dimensions incubation
In-Reply-To: <16d6c6200612010904r764cf8fk87d7c3a7baa3e7a1@mail.gmail.com>
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On 12/1/06, Martin Cooper <martinc@apache.org> wrote:
> On 12/1/06, Nathan Bubna <nbubna@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > in my continuing quest to redefine the concept of "umbrella" in
> > Apache-land....
> >
> > On 12/1/06, Martin Cooper <martinc@apache.org> wrote:
> > > On 12/1/06, Antonio Petrelli <apetrelli@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Craig McClanahan ha scritto:
> > > > > The Dimensions code is going to have to go through
> > > > > the Incubator -- even though its likely that this can go very
> > quickly,
> > > > > there
> > > > > is no reason to mess up the progress of the Tiles TLP proposal by
> > > > > trying to
> > > > > do them together.
> > > >
> > > > Hi Craig, when I wrote "at the same time" I did not mean "together".
> > > > Since probably Dimensions will become a subproject of Tiles TLP
> > >
> > >
> > > I know this has been said by others before, but let me make it very
> > clear:
> > > The ASF board does not like "umbrella" projects at all, and would most
> > > likely not approve Tiles as a TLP if it "smelled" of forthcoming
> > > sub-projects before it even got off the ground.
> >
> > actually, we were able to take Velocityto TLP with both existing
> > subprojects and the smell of forthcoming ones.  this was done with
> > much clarification, restriction, and debate on what constitutes an
> > acceptable "subproject".  the key difference is that Velocity will not
> > be a "bucket" project such as Jakarta or db.apache.org that exists to
> > group projects who share a conceptual space, but whose code and
> > community are unconnected.   instead, Velocity aims to be a true
> > "umbrella" where all the Velocity subprojects (spokes of the umbrella)
> > are truly sub-ordinate.   this means their code and community are
> > invested in the core Velocity template engine (the center pole) and do
> > not function without it.   the difference between bucket and umbrella
> > is crucial to building a healthy, shared community.
> >
> > other significant differences are that non of the sub-projects get
> > their own mailing list or svn permissions.  that would fragment the
> > community.
> >
> > > The reason that some people do not want Tiles to live on as a
> > sub-project
> > > within Struts is one of the same reasons that Shale went out on its own;
> > > sub-projects are a sign that a project is moving in the wrong direction;
> > > that is, in a direction that is not favoured by the ASF Board, and for
> > good
> > > reasons. Struts has been moving, and continues to move, in a direction
> > that
> > > eliminates the notion of sub-projects, the only exception being the two
> > > versions of the Struts framework itself.
> >
> > i really think this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  just
> > because the sub-project things has been done poorly, doesn't mean that
> > it deserves to be eliminated.  i would hope that the board's
> > acceptance of Velocity and its subprojects as a TLP shows recognition
> > that it can be done right.
> >
> > > If Dimensions would ultimately be merged into Tiles, that is one thing,
> > and
> > > that might be fine. If, however, you are thinking that Dimensions would
> > live
> > > as a "similar concept but separate framework" to Tiles, but within the
> > same
> > > TLP, that is quite another thing, and not something I would like to see,
> > not
> > > to mention the ASF Board.
> >
> > agreed.  conceptual association is totally insufficient grounds for
> > shared community.
>
>
> That's really the crux of what I was trying to say. Clearly, I didn't say it
> very well. ;-(

excellent!  so long as we do not plan to ban any and all subprojects
from this Tiles TLP we're trying to create, i will be happy.   but, if
you'd like, feel free to join me in my quest and differentiate between
"conceptual bucket TLPs" and "code-connected umbrella TLPs".  :)
since we began the effort to extricate the Velocity umbrella from the
Jakarta bucket, i've been making a concerted effort to refine the
language here in hopes of changing how the ASF thinks about these
issues.

> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> > So, in short, we should purge the notion of sub-projecs from our minds,
> > > whichever top-level project we are thinking of, and work on the basis
> > that
> > > they should not exist.
> >
> > no thanks.
> >
> > > --
> > > Martin Cooper
> > >
> > >
> > > , I
> > > > thought that probably it was appropriate to wait until it is
> > estabilished.
> > > > I read this:
> > > >
> > > > http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Sponsor
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > > A Sponsor SHALL be either:
> > > > * the Board of the Apache Software Foundation;
> > > > * a Top Level Project (TLP) within the Apache Software Foundation
> > (where
> > > > the TLP considers the Candidate to be a suitable sub-project); or
> > > > * the Incubator PMC.
> > > > </snip>
> > > >
> > > > Antonio
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>

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