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From Greg Reddin <>
Subject Re: Non-discussion emails
Date Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:38:55 GMT
There are several things I've been thinking about as this discussion  
has developed.

First, it is true with any craft, but especially with technology,  
that we must always be willing to change when better ways come  
along.  Otherwise we stagnate and fade away.  So if I would be more  
productive using these other tools it would be wise for me to  
consider using them.

However, I can't imagine I would be more productive by having to open  
an RSS reader to follow "the other stuff".  As it is I glance at my  
email several times a day and read what I can and delete the rest  
(similar to James' approach).  I would actually be *less* productive  
if that involved opening up another reader.  The end result is that  
I'd probably not read the commits, wiki updates, and tickets.  Then I  
would lose track with what's going on and fade away.

I'm ok with multiple lists.  I tend to subscribe once and stay  
subscribed.  I could potentially be subscribed from this email  
address for the rest of my life :-)  If that supports both ways, then  

You guys have made some good points about the WW merger being a  
merger of communities not just code.  To that end I think there  
should be compromise on both sides to merge the communities and get  
them working together.  However I think one should expect movement on  
the ASF side to be slower and more incremental because we're talking  
about the whole ASF not just Struts.  The other side of that coin is  
that I hope the WW people will bring these new ideas to the table and  
eventually institute change for the better.  Just be aware that this  
is a slow-moving train.  That pace is one of the things I enjoy about  
the ASF.  I can go away for a while and when I come back things will  
likely be in a state where I can jump back into familiar territory.

I, for one, will try to embrace the new ideas, but it will take a lot  
of time.  I'd much rather be working on Tiles than figuring out new  
ways of keeping up with the discussions :-)  +1 for the incremental  
approach Ted (I think) proposed.


On Jan 17, 2006, at 7:45 PM, Patrick Lightbody wrote:

> Wow, seems like there is a lot of push back on this topic. All I  
> ask Please respect that Jason and I (as well as the WebWork  
> community) come from a very well-established open source community  
> and have a lot of alternative experience in this area. We both have  
> different perspectives, but this merger is more than dumping code  
> in the Struts codebase. It is working with the teams too.
> To Ted's specific points:
>  * I am very well aware the emails are a direct result of a peron's  
> action. To my original point: I don't care. I personally review the  
> wiki and bug tracker at a different time than when I check email.
>  * Jive Forums certainly can filter the email, and I may turn that  
> on, but then I've bypassed the team rather than working with them.  
> I don't like that approach at all.
> To Sean's points:
>   * I am not proposing that we get rid of email lists. I am only  
> suggesting that there be ways to opt out of certain lists/types of  
> mail. Why is offering more options such a problem? I fail to see  
> how everything being list-based leads to the conclusion that "The  
> result is a single archive that is publicly searchable and contains  
> all relevant decisions (no matter how trivial) in one place." Why  
> can't there be multiple archives that can all be searched at once?  
> We provide that with WebWork by allowing users to search the  
> WebWork _category_, which includes the Dev, User, and CVS lists.
> To James:
>   * I fully support that you work that way and am not suggesting  
> your workflow change at all. I 100% support complete email-based  
> communication. I only ask that some users such as myself be able to  
> opt out.
> So, I'd like to propose something. Ted said:
>> Now, we could create a wiki@ mailing list and an issue@ mailing list,
>> to match the commit@ list, but now when people opt-in, they have to
>> opt into five lists instead of three. If we add a Roller blog to the
>>  mix, then there would be six.
> I offer two suggestions, either is perfectly fine with me. Any  
> other suggestions that provide more alternatives are also of course  
> welcome:
> 1) Why not create a simple web-based form to manage all the lists.  
> By default, all 5, 6, or 7 lists are checked when the user clicks  
> the "subscribe" button, but each list can be independently  
> subscribed and unsubscribed. You can even set the Reply-To header  
> for some of the lists (bugs, wiki, etc) to point back to the dev@  
> list.
> and/or
> 2) Using a Forums-based approach and different mailing lists for  
> each type of content (wiki@, dev@, bug@, etc), create a single  
> Struts category with several sub-forms that sync to the lists. Now  
> users can search the Struts category and get a unified archive.
> Thoughts? I understand that this does involve some work, and for  
> those of you who are quite happy with how things are now, it may  
> seem like a waste of time. As such, I'm more than willing to do the  
> actual work for any proposed solution.
> Patrick
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