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From Patrick Lightbody <>
Subject Re: Tough Questions on Struts and Webwork Integration
Date Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:44:09 GMT
Definitely getting a bit off topic, but... :)

Matthew Porter, who works for Contegix, recently wrote an article that
I think is very relevant:

Contegix has tried to address these "single points of failure" by
providing a broad team of experts to manage the servers -- all of whom
are experts at Java and these products.

Even still, I think for open source organizations to feel "truly
free", hosting solutions like, SourceForge, or even Contegix
need to offer things like nightly backups of not just source code, but
_all_ the data (jira, wiki, etc). Organizations like Apache could then
download those backups and have a much better contingency plan.

On 12/1/05, Martin Cooper <> wrote:
> On 12/1/05, Ted Husted <> wrote:
> >
> > On 11/30/05, Martin Cooper <> wrote:
> > >  I am very much against taking ASF content off-site, as it were. We have
> > a
> > > perfectly good wiki, and that's where our content should be. I know
> > there
> > > are a bunch of Confluence fans out there, and maybe it's a better
> > product in
> > > some ways. But the ASF has standardised on a wiki, and we shouldabide by
> > > that. (Was anyone hosting ASF code on an SVN server outside the
> > foundation,
> > > before we moved to CVS, just because it was better? I don't think so.)
> >
> > The ASF doesn't "standardize" on this type of tool. Them that do the
> > work make the decisions. What tools a community uses and how we use
> > them is up to the individual PMCs. What the ASF cares about is whether
> > the project's development community uses the tools to collaborate.
> >
> > Point in fact, the only reason we have a JIRA instance now is because
> > some projects started using their own instance off site. Because
> > projects were voting with their feet, we were able to find volunteers
> > to setup the JIRA instance. Now, people didn't push for our own JIRA
> > instance because it was "wrong" to have an issue tracker elsewhere, we
> > pushed for it because if some projects wanted to use JIRA, then it
> > follows that others would want to use it too. Looking at our JIRA
> > instance now, I'm thinking that was a good call :)
> I'm not so sure. Much as I like JIRA, the ASF JIRA installation is
> vulnerable. It is effectively supported only by Jeff Turner, who works for
> Atlassian. We are dependent on him - and the fact that he works for
> Atlassian - for fixes, maintenance, and enhancements to JIRA itself. If he
> disappears, we are in trouble. The same concern has been expressed about
> adding a Confluence installation at the ASF.
> For security and legal reasons, the ASF has decided that the
> > foundation must have all of our *source code* in our repository on our
> > machines, and the ASF does want us to retain essential services, like
> > the mailing lists and primary web site, on ASF hardware. But secondary
> > services, like issue trackers and wikis, can be kept anywhere a
> > project finds convenient.
> If you ask on infra@, I don't think you'll get agreement with that last
> statement.
> --
> Martin Cooper
> When security and legal issues do not trump, what works for the
> > volunteers, works for the ASF. Volunteers are the only ASF resource
> > that matters.
> >
> > If the WebWorks merger goes through, another aspect will be "eating
> > our own dog food". JIRA, Confluence, and Jive all use WebWork, and the
> > ASF *does* prefer that we use our own software when we can. If WebWork
> > is going to be our software, then, all things remaining equal, we
> > should give first preference to WebWork products.
> >
> > Of course, personally, I don't believe all things are equal. By
> > comparison, I find moin-moin painful to use. Being only human, I will
> > contribute fewer hours to working on a moin-moin wiki then I will a
> > Confluence wiki. I'm in the web application business, and I enjoy
> > using well-designed web applications, like JIRA, Confluence, and Jive.
> > Like most volunteers, I prefer to "volunteer with pleasure".
> >
> > -Ted.
> >
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