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From "Frank W. Zammetti" <fzli...@omnytex.com>
Subject RE: RFC: Struts HTML Ajax-Aware Tags
Date Thu, 07 Apr 2005 18:35:42 GMT
I think for me this discussion should begin in one way only: with some
demonstrations of what we think it would look like.

For instance, if you tell me:

<newGUI:treeview populateFrom="myBean" onNodeClick="ajax:doNodeClick.do"
onItemClick="ajax:doItemClick.do" />

...and then tell me there is a new config file introduced with
such-and-such a structure, then that gives me a fair idea what the intent
is (and don't take this as a real example because it isn't meant to be).

This means more to me than "...a framework that abstracts view type
things" (not meant as a slam to you in any way, just making a point).

I think it's easier to work towards a goal when you know what it is in
concrete terms rather than some poentially vague high-level abstractions
(abstractions in general are simultaneously the most powerful tool we have
as architects as well as the bane of our existence!)

> And of course the real question becomes - is the struts dev list the
> right place to hold this conversation now? And if it is not where or how
> do we hold it? :)

Your right, that's a good question even *before* anything else ;)

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com

On Thu, April 7, 2005 2:18 pm, Fogleson, Allen said:
> Frank,
>
> Ok here are my "interpretations" of his comments about that. And mind
> you this is a very high level kind of thing I haven't thought through
> any kind of real architecture here.
>
> 1) We (or you and whoever, or just you) create a framework that
> abstracts view type things.
> 2) Create extensions of the struts tags (much like the el tags did) that
> extend struts to use that framework either using Ajax extensions in this
> iteration or... as a pluggable view technology and in...
> 3) create the pluggable Ajax portion.
>
> Now this begs some questions...
>
> 1) how is it easy to use. For instance I assume if we use a pluggable
> view technology that there has to be a configuration for that technology
> (in addition to any configuration that technology needs - i.e. your ajax
> xml config) and that makes things inherently more complicated.
>
> 2) what is the "intermediate" view technology framework. that is , what
> is needed in it.
>
> And of course the real question becomes - is the struts dev list the
> right place to hold this conversation now? And if it is not where or how
> do we hold it? :)
>
> Al
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:fzlists@omnytex.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 1:07 PM
> To: Struts Developers List
> Cc: Struts Developers List
> Subject: RE: RFC: Struts HTML Ajax-Aware Tags
>
> Well then perhaps we can shift this discussion to what Martin had in
> mind... I wasn't sure where he was going frankly.
>
> It sounded to me like he was almost saying we should be looking at
> providing a whole new GUI framework for developing client-side webapp
> components, independant of what is going on back at the server (mostly).
>
> Of course, something like that pretty quickly starts to sound like XUL
> or
> even JSF or 100 other things out there.  And if you go down that route,
> what do you lose in the process?  The Struts tags are a known quantity,
> and they are aware of Struts to an extent... will people be willing to
> give that up to use a whole new set of GUI components?
>
> That was, I felt, the beauty of Ajax-enabling the existing tags... it's
> something know, something real (mostly), now (well, soon!), that expands
> the toolbox of existing Struts developers, rather than four months of
> discussions, another four months of proof-of-concepts, and a year before
> anything is produced that is useable.
>
> I am open to the possibilities though, so by all means let's have a
> discussion and see where everyone thinks we are and where we should be
> going.  I'm all for going a different route if it can be shown to be
> better and not just pie-in-the-sky.
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
>
> On Thu, April 7, 2005 1:58 pm, Fogleson, Allen said:
>> Yes, I think that is the bottom line, but I believe your post did
>> provide some good things.
>>
>> 1) there is some interest from other developers in assisting with such
> a
>> project.
>>
>> 2) Although the initial proposal was for a specific technology I
> believe
>> Martin brought up some good points about there being a "core"
> framework
>> for other view technologies to use, and the first concrete
>> implementation of that framework can be Ajax.
>>
>> Now on to the sf thing. I really need to write off I have some stuff
>> that I thought about starting a sf project for.. basically extensions
> of
>> MessageResources. (much like Jame's stuff) I really should just write
> to
>> one of the admins at struts.sf.net so I can become a member of that
>> project.
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:fzlists@omnytex.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 12:45 PM
>> To: husted@apache.org
>> Cc: Struts Developers List
>> Subject: Re: RFC: Struts HTML Ajax-Aware Tags
>>
>> Well, the bottom-line here is that I am in fact a developer member of
>> struts.sf.net, although I have yet to contribute anything to it.  If I
>> want to persue this, that is one of the avenues available to me
>> (although
>> I don't know the procedure yet).  I don't know at this point if I'm
>> going
>> to do that, go somewhere else, or simply say to hell with it.  I was
>> hoping for a different answer, but I didn't get it, but that's OK,
> that
>> was the whole point of bringing it up.
>>
>> --
>> Frank W. Zammetti
>> Founder and Chief Software Architect
>> Omnytex Technologies
>> http://www.omnytex.com
>>
>> On Thu, April 7, 2005 1:28 pm, Ted Husted said:
>>> On Apr 7, 2005 1:12 PM, Fogleson, Allen
> <allen.fogleson@daugherty.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Jack,
>>>>
>>>> Actually my comments were in no way an answer to his proposal. I
>> believe
>>>> that under the rules of Apache we have already gotten our answer to
>>>> whether it will be included as a subproject of struts. To be
> included
>>>> there must be no vetoing vote by a member of the PMC. (pardon me
>> Martin
>>>> if I misquote you or I misinterpreted your intent) Martin Cooper is
> a
>>>> member of the PMC and basically gave a -1 vote on including it as a
>>>> subproject.
>>>
>>> Just as point of order, vetos only apply to product changes. Adopting
>>> a subproject is a 3/4 majority vote.
>>>
>>> http://struts.apache.org/bylaws.html
>>>
>>> And, there is not enough here to even think about voting on
> subproject
>>> status. We don't vote on good intentions. A product would have to be
>>> very nearly complete, and have already attracted a following, before
>>> we'd want to consider a subproject vote.
>>>
>>> This is an informal discussion. Frank just wanted to run it up the
>> flag
>>> pole.
>>>
>>> -Ted.
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
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