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From Craig McClanahan <>
Subject Re: "Use Cases" Example Webapp for the Shale proposal
Date Tue, 04 Jan 2005 09:16:18 GMT
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 22:46:03 -0800, Dakota Jack <> wrote:
> ????
> Whatever happened to the proposals to move this JSF implementation to
> MyFaces?  That would seem to be much more appropriate.  Perhaps it
> could be called JSFShale or FacesShale?  What this has to do at all
> with Struts has never, in my opinion, been explained, beyond the
> desire to appropriate the Struts name.

As has become depressingly common, you have the most important
question totally backwards.

JSF will succeed or fail on its own merits.  Struts is irrelevant to
that, other than the fact that we can provide a path to use ~10% of
JSF's capabilities (you can use JSF components but not the rest of the
capabilities of JSF via the integration library).

Struts, on the other hand, is already (without taking JSF into
consideration) a long ways behind the state of the art.  With the
advent of JSF, it borders on becoming (over time) irrelevant for new
application development.  Of course that is not an instantanous
process, but you can't stop fundamental shifts in direction, either.

And none of the proposed 1.3.x changes make the slightest bit of
difference in this regard.

What is it going to say to the world if the person who *developed*
Struts in the first place says it is no longer the best solution? 
That appears to be a foregone conclusion if the Struts development
community agrees with your position.  (This is *not* my preference,
which is why I'm still pushing Shale to be Struts 2.x -- but let's be
clear; this is a "put up or shut up" sort of decision.)

Even if that happens, there will clearly be a transition period for
existing applications.  And I will be happy to support transition
users, with the Struts-Faces Integration Library.  But, from what I
have seen in the market, Struts is becoming increasingly less relevant
for new application development.  JSF is only going to accelerate that
trend -- but it was there already.  Anyone who ignores what is
happening already is acting like an ostrich.

That's not something I plan to do.  If the Struts community doesn't
support something like Shale, I'm *personally* going to compete with
it for new development.  That doesn't seem like a "good thing", but
sometimes that sort of thing happens.

> Jack


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