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From "Steve Raeburn" <>
Subject RE: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
Date Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:54:49 GMT
So organize your ideas offline then, when you are ready, publish them. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael McGrady []
Sent: September 24, 2004 10:53 AM
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help

I should tell you, Matt, that by the time I am finished with this page, 
it will probably be ten times as long as it is with the stuff I already 
have to put in and without covering other peoples' ideas.  I am trying 
to organize this presentation.  That, as you notice, will be very 
difficult to do.  Organizing it with others jumping in the middle of it 
will be harder.  I don't really want help in organizing my ideas.  I 
would just like people to stay out of the middle while I am trying to 
organize and present it.


Matt Bathje wrote:

> I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as 
> it is easier for me.
> I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem. 
> But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving 
> detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to 
> compare/contrast.
> Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without 
> mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up 
> without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the 
> old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express 
> their opinions of all of them.
> A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog 
> Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the 
> just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all 
> possible/known solutions defined in one place.
> I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5 
> solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if 
> you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to 
> that is how you have formatted the page.
> A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by 
> collaboration.
> Matt
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>> Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page 
>> are new solutions.  The other solutions that people are trying to put 
>> into this page have been in public for two years and more.  If there 
>> is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the 
>> old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new 
>> ideas?  I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
>> Michael McGrady
>> Matt Bathje wrote:
>>> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?) 
>>> going to.
>>> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is 
>>> about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>>> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner 
>>> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in 
>>> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The 
>>> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall 
>>> made his changes.
>>> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making 
>>> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>>> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to 
>>> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes 
>>> it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current 
>>> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1 
>>> person has chosen as acceptable.
>>> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird 
>>> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have 
>>> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly 
>>> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible 
>>> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short 
>>> description of the solution by its link.
>>> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents" 
>>> page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>>> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction 
>>> and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you 
>>> follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily 
>>> presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions. 
>>> In the comments section of the main page, people can express their 
>>> views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>>> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell 
>>> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try 
>>> other solutions.
>>> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most 
>>> of the problems we are seeing.
>>> Matt
>>> Michael McGrady wrote:
>>>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to 
>>>> credit your work as yours.  I did not want my name associated with 
>>>> those thoughts.  I have credited others on the page.  I did not 
>>>> laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly 
>>>> trying to critique and to surpass.
>>>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic 
>>>> in any way towards you.  I am not going to get into the personal 
>>>> attacks thing more than I have.
>>>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently.  Your 
>>>> grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect 
>>>> and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of  this wiki page.
>>>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things.  But, 
>>>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this.  Yours are, 
>>>> simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly 
>>>> will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>>>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying 
>>>> to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them?  I 
>>>> simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex 
>>>> page.  Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look.  We have a 
>>>> different approach on this and are not likely to see things the 
>>>> same.  That is of no concern to me.  But, cleaning up this wiki 
>>>> after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
>>>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one 
>>>> page?  I also must state that it is clear that we have no 
>>>> collaboration on this point.  You adapt the ImageButtonBean 
>>>> approach and I used and rejected that.  I am presenting a series of 
>>>> new approaches.
>>>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the 
>>>> wiki.  That is not collaboration.  We are not going to collaborate 
>>>> here.  We disagree, apparently.  That is okay.  Part of the wiki is 
>>>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think.  Why won't you let me 
>>>> do that in peace?
>>>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you 
>>>> like, without you putting in what you like in those places?  That 
>>>> is the difficulty.
>>>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean 
>>>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly 
>>>> inferior.  Like I said, I have no animosity towards you.  All I am 
>>>> is upset at having to clean up the messes.  Hopefully this will be 
>>>> a new day.  I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes, 
>>>> or the wiki will be nuked.
>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>>> I respected what you requested in the 
>>>>> "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>>>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the 
>>>>> subject - I
>>>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested 
>>>>> people should
>>>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should 
>>>>> have put
>>>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and 
>>>>> you also
>>>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you 
>>>>> making
>>>>> reference to me  so last night I went through removing all those 
>>>>> references.
>>>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I 
>>>>> would
>>>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem 
>>>>> to want
>>>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if 
>>>>> thats the
>>>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a 
>>>>> link to
>>>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include 
>>>>> any
>>>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal 
>>>>> attacks on
>>>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why 
>>>>> do you say
>>>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>>>> unecessary and rude.
>>>>> Niall
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady" 
>>>>> <>
>>>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, 
>>>>>> despite being
>>>>>> detailed and long.  I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing

>>>>>> that
>>>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not

>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques

>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> links you provided.  Now you have moved the critiques to places 
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's

>>>>>> status
>>>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable?  If there is 
>>>>>> no way
>>>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it 
>>>>>> altogether
>>>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his 
>>>>>> whim and
>>>>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>>> Michael McGrady
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