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From "Andrew Hill" <>
Subject RE: Hello, all.
Date Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:17:26 GMT
Barracuda is an impressive framework. It also has quite a powerful event
model which struts lacks.
The rendering seems tied to XMLC however. Ive not used Barracuda myself so
dont know how hard it would be to make it play with a different view
technology. That said, using a DOM approach for rendering has substantial
advantages. As it happens Im also using a non jsp DOM based rendering
approach (not xmlc though) for the view in my struts app - and it must be
said from this experience that struts certainly doesnt tie you down to a
particular view technology. :-)

Interesting to note that many of the things that struts lacks compared to
frameworks such as Barracuda are addressed in the JSF spec - events,
component models, etc...
Im very much looking forward to Struts for JSF...

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Honig []
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 04:59
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: RE: Hello, all.

In order to stick my head out so it can be cut off...

Well I think that Struts rocks first off...

But when you compare it to a framework like:

It seems clear to me that struts is not as elegant.

Struts does not as clearly seperate M-V-C.

Struts lacks a component model that Barracuda cleanly identifies.

And I think this is fine.  I wouldn't want to introduce Barracuda to alot of
because it is more complex.   Struts is a simple way of achieving the same
and pragmatism is one of the values I prize most in this profession.


-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham []
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Hello, all.

You'll want to join the struts-user list to learn more about Struts and get
help with any questions you might have.  The struts-dev list is used by
developers to discuss bugs, enhancements, and general topics concerning the
framework's development.


>From: Joseph Ottinger <>
>Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <>
>To: Struts Developers List <>
>Subject: Re: Hello, all.
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0500 (EST)
>Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't been
>interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I responded
>to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
>that if I can.
>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:
> > Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no idea
> > how little you know.
> >
> > At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joseph,
> > > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important
> > > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core it's
> > > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards
>like JSTL
> > > > and JSF.
> > >
> > >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> > >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> > >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, centered
> > >around your point.
> > >
> > > > I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this list
>and I
> > > > don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on
> > > > site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts
>and then
> > > > make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this:
> > > > Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly
> > > > cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC
> > > framework for
> > > > a reason.  I suggest you find out why.
> > >
> > >Lots of points here!
> > >
> > >For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors begging
> > >extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up to
> > >you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful"
> > >I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more situations.
> > >"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
> > >otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most
> > >OS, and that doesn't mean it's the best solution.
> > >
> > > > I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a
>matter of
> > > > personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with
> > > > statements.
> > >
> > >Indeed! I agree with this; as I've stated, my goal was to explain a
> > >viewpoint that was asked about. I joined this list so that I could
> > >determine what actually *IS* incorrect and fix that.
> > >
>Joseph B. Ottinger       
>                    IT Consultant
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