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From "David Graham" <dgraham1...@hotmail.com>
Subject RE: Hello, all.
Date Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:33:34 GMT


>From: "Andrew Hill" <andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com>
>Reply-To: <andrew.david.hill@gridnode.com>
>To: "Struts Developers List" <struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
>Subject: RE: Hello, all.
>Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:17:26 +0800
>
>Barracuda is an impressive framework. It also has quite a powerful event
>model which struts lacks.
>The rendering seems tied to XMLC however. Ive not used Barracuda myself so
>dont know how hard it would be to make it play with a different view
>technology. That said, using a DOM approach for rendering has substantial
>advantages. As it happens Im also using a non jsp DOM based rendering
>approach (not xmlc though) for the view in my struts app - and it must be
>said from this experience that struts certainly doesnt tie you down to a
>particular view technology. :-)
>
><btw>
>Interesting to note that many of the things that struts lacks compared to
>frameworks such as Barracuda are addressed in the JSF spec - events,
>component models, etc...
>Im very much looking forward to Struts for JSF...
></btw>

This is a direct result of Struts not trying to be everything to everyone.  
The main Struts functionality (action controller) is unlikely to become a 
standard as far as i can tell.  So, Struts fits nicely into a comprehensive 
web framework composed of various standards and your own code.  I'd much 
rather develop apps that use standards and appropriate toolkits like Struts 
than with something like Barracuda.


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniel Honig [mailto:daniel.honig@objectmachines.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 04:59
>To: Struts Developers List
>Subject: RE: Hello, all.
>
>
>In order to stick my head out so it can be cut off...
>
>
>Well I think that Struts rocks first off...
>
>But when you compare it to a framework like:
>http://barracuda.enhydra.org/
>http://barracuda.enhydra.org/cvs_source/Barracuda/docs/what_the_heck_is_barr
>acuda.html
>
>
>It seems clear to me that struts is not as elegant.
>
>Struts does not as clearly seperate M-V-C.
>
>Struts lacks a component model that Barracuda cleanly identifies.
>
>
>And I think this is fine.  I wouldn't want to introduce Barracuda to alot 
>of
>developer's
>because it is more complex.   Struts is a simple way of achieving the same
>goal
>and pragmatism is one of the values I prize most in this profession.
>
>-Daniel
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Graham [mailto:dgraham1980@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:58 AM
>To: struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org
>Subject: Re: Hello, all.
>
>
>You'll want to join the struts-user list to learn more about Struts and get
>help with any questions you might have.  The struts-dev list is used by
>developers to discuss bugs, enhancements, and general topics concerning the
>framework's development.
>
>David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Joseph Ottinger <joeo@enigmastation.com>
> >Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
> >To: Struts Developers List <struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
> >Subject: Re: Hello, all.
> >Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't 
>been
> >interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I 
>responded
> >to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
> >that if I can.
> >
> >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:
> >
> > > Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no 
>idea
> > > how little you know.
> > >
> > > At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Joseph,
> > > > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the 
>important
> >point
> > > > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core 
>it's
> >simply
> > > > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards
> >like JSTL
> > > > > and JSF.
> > > >
> > > >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> > > >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> > > >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, 
>centered
> > > >around your point.
> > > >
> > > > > I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this 
>list
> >and I
> > > > > don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on
> >your
> > > > > site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts
> >and then
> > > > > make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is 
>this:
> > > > > Thousands of successful web applications have been produced 
>quickly
> >and
> > > > > cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC
> > > > framework for
> > > > > a reason.  I suggest you find out why.
> > > >
> > > >Lots of points here!
> > > >
> > > >For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors 
>begging
> >for
> > > >extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up 
>to
> > > >you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful"
> >ones.
> > > >I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more 
>situations.
> > > >"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
> > > >otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most
> >popular"
> > > >OS, and that doesn't mean it's the best solution.
> > > >
> > > > > I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a
> >matter of
> > > > > personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with
> >ignorant
> > > > > statements.
> > > >
> > > >Indeed! I agree with this; as I've stated, my goal was to explain a
> > > >viewpoint that was asked about. I joined this list so that I could
> > > >determine what actually *IS* incorrect and fix that.
> > > >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------
> >Joseph B. Ottinger                 joeo@enigmastation.com
> >http://enigmastation.com                    IT Consultant
> >
> >--
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