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From "David Graham" <dgraham1...@hotmail.com>
Subject Re: Hello, all.
Date Mon, 09 Dec 2002 16:58:02 GMT
You'll want to join the struts-user list to learn more about Struts and get 
help with any questions you might have.  The struts-dev list is used by 
developers to discuss bugs, enhancements, and general topics concerning the 
framework's development.

David






>From: Joseph Ottinger <joeo@enigmastation.com>
>Reply-To: "Struts Developers List" <struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
>To: Struts Developers List <struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
>Subject: Re: Hello, all.
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0500 (EST)
>
>Then enlighten me? I wouldn't have joined the list at all if I hadn't been
>interested in learning more. Dave had a substantive point, one I responded
>to. Where I erred once, I'm sure I can err again; I'm trying to prevent
>that if I can.
>
>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, micael wrote:
>
> > Joseph, you are making a fool out of yourself.  You seem to have no idea
> > how little you know.
> >
> > At 11:08 AM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joseph,
> > > > I noticed you quoted me on your site but you left out the important 
>point
> > > > that Struts has never and will never dictate a model or view layer
> > > > technology.  Struts gives you total freedom because at its core it's 
>simply
> > > > an action controller.  The taglibs will be replaced by standards 
>like JSTL
> > > > and JSF.
> > >
> > >Actually, I did note those things, while my definition of a "model"
> > >differs slightly from yours. I made a point out of mentioning in my
> > >introductory email here that I retracted one of my criticisms, centered
> > >around your point.
> > >
> > > > I had never heard of your site before someone posted it on this list 
>and I
> > > > don't intend to visit it often.  Struts does not need a defense on 
>your
> > > > site.  *You* need to actually build a meaningful app using Struts 
>and then
> > > > make a judgement.  The only "defense" of Struts I'll offer is this:
> > > > Thousands of successful web applications have been produced quickly 
>and
> > > > cheaply using Struts.  Struts is the most popular Java web MVC
> > > framework for
> > > > a reason.  I suggest you find out why.
> > >
> > >Lots of points here!
> > >
> > >For one thing, it's okay - my site has no banners, no sponsors begging 
>for
> > >extra traffic. Whether you visit often or not, well, hey - that's up to
> > >you. As far as using struts: I've deployed struts apps, "meaningful" 
>ones.
> > >I've found other frameworks to be more appropriate for more situations.
> > >"Most popular" is fairly well beyond doubt, and I've never claimed
> > >otherwise (nor would I)... but then again, Windows is the "most 
>popular"
> > >OS, and that doesn't mean it's the best solution.
> > >
> > > > I frankly don't care if some people don't like Struts; that's a 
>matter of
> > > > personal preference.  I do care when it is misrepresented with 
>ignorant
> > > > statements.
> > >
> > >Indeed! I agree with this; as I've stated, my goal was to explain a
> > >viewpoint that was asked about. I joined this list so that I could
> > >determine what actually *IS* incorrect and fix that.
> > >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Joseph B. Ottinger                 joeo@enigmastation.com
>http://enigmastation.com                    IT Consultant
>
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