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From "Nathan Bubna" <nat...@esha.com>
Subject Re: Velocity vs. JSP: objective tests?
Date Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:47:55 GMT
Craig said:
...
> Sorry ... I was following an example from a published article (don't
> remember where) so I presume that it (at least) *used* to be correct :-0.

yeah, it may have been right (or closer) once, but not since at least two
years ago (when i started using velocity).

> > ...
> > > * Velocity advocates used to argue that using Velocity was safer
> > >   because it restricted what a page designer could do to calling
> > >   getter methods.  This was never a completely true argument
> > >   (how do *you* know that the getter method of the beans you are
> > >   calling doesn't mutate something?), but it's been pretty much
> > >   eliminated by the fact that you can call arbitrary methods
> > >   in Velocity.
> >
> > yes, it is possible to design badly even in Velocity, but perhaps we
could
> > agree it's at least harder in Velocity to do so.
>
> Harder != Impossible.

yep, that's what i said.  we agree then! :)

> > ...
> > >
> > > There was an interesting article on onjava.com about a project to
> > > implement a simple blogger app that used both Struts and Velocity:
> > >
> > >   http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2002/04/17/wblogosj2ee.html
> > >
> > > I was particularly struck by the following snippet of Velocity code:
> > >
> > >   $macros.showNavBar(true)
> > >
> > > which builds part of the UI by rendering the navigation bar.  I don't
know
> > > about you, but that looks an awful lot like a scriptlet equivalent:
> > >
> > >   <% macros.showNavBar(true); %>
> > >
> > > to me :-).
> >
> > yeah, no offense intended to David Johnson, but that's a really poor way
to
> > use Velocity.  it looks as though that method is intended to spit out
some
> > HTML hardcoded into whatever $macros is or some such thing.  the HTML
> > shouldn't come from the java, it should be in the template to begin
with, or
> > at least defined the global Velocimacro library.  that way the code
could
> > just be:
> >
> > #showNavBar( true)
> >
>
> Fine ... still looks like a scriptlet to me :-).

looks can be deceiving!   with a proper velocimacro, the HTML isn't
hard-coded into java classes.  that may not be important to some folks, but
it is to me.  i think it goes a long way toward *encouraging* good MVC
separation.  it's not just a matter of syntax, but of design philosophy as
well.

...
> Actually, Ted's Struts book (Struts In Action) devotes an entire chapter
> to using Velocity and Struts together, including how VelocityViewServlet
> helps you out.  It would make a pretty good starting point for people
> interested in learning how to combine them.

yeah, i haven't gotten to see it, but i heard he talked about the
Velocity+Struts stuff in it.  i'm hoping it gets more people looking into
and/or using that code.  i think there's some good potential there, but
progress has kinda plateaued lately.  it could use some fresh
users/contributers to prod things along.

Nathan Bubna
nathan@esha.com


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