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From Chris Geer <ch...@cxtsoftware.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Continuing the Momentum
Date Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:50:02 GMT
On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Matt Franklin <m.ben.franklin@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Chris Geer <chris@cxtsoftware.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Steve Blackmon <steve@blackmon.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Standards-based stream processing - predictable, performant, at scale
> > >
> >
> > Is the target audience technical folk or business folk?
> >
>
> Target audience is our potential users.  Technical in nature, but it still
> needs to be succinct.
>

Ok, with that said, I think the tag-line should be more feature focused
because that can hook both the tech guys and business guys. We also need to
make careful just using the term "streams" because really this isn't a
generic stream processor (aka storm), our focus is on Activity Streams.
Maybe activity streams is a bad descriptor as well and Activity Data might
be better. "Real-time Processing for Activity Data Streams"???

>
>
> >
> > >
> > > ?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Matt Franklin <
> m.ben.franklin@gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Renato MarroquĂ­n Mogrovejo <
> > > > renatoj.marroquin@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi devs,
> > > >>
> > > >> Yeah the title was indeed compelling. You got me on that one lol
> > > >> I think that you guys are right saying that for attracting new
> people
> > > maybe
> > > >> we should try making the project's goal something more applicable
in
> > > real
> > > >> life than just being "a Lightweight server for ActivityStreams".
> > > >> I liked the simple explanation I heard,maybe it was the pisco but
> > please
> > > >> correct me if I am wrong, "it's an abstraction layer for stream
> > > processing
> > > >> engines". IMHO we have two things defined:
> > > >>
> > > >> MISION:
> > > >> 1)  A flexible data processing framework that can run in multiple
> > > different
> > > >> runtimes.  The goal being to abstract platform complexity and allow
> > for
> > > >> business logic reuse across real-time, enterprise, web and
> stand-alone
> > > >> executions.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is what needs to be done.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> VISION:
> > > >> 2)  As a proving ground for the adoption of data format standards,
> > > >> specifically ActivityStreams to start.  The community would work to
> > > drive
> > > >> the adoption and evolution of such standards through real-world
> > > experience.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is where we would like to get at some time. But also to get
> more
> > > >> community engaged, things have to simple. That is a big issue we
> still
> > > have
> > > >> over in Gora, and we are trying to solve it through talks, better
> > > >> tutorials, integration with other projects, and so forth.
> > > >> Just my 2cents guys.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > So what is the tag line that sums up both the mission and the vision?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Renato M.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> 2014-04-14 16:31 GMT+02:00 Matt Franklin <m.ben.franklin@gmail.com
> >:
> > > >>
> > > >> > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Steve Blackmon <
> > sblackmon@apache.org
> > > >> > >wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Matt Franklin <
> > > >> m.ben.franklin@gmail.com
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> > > > tl;dr version:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > We need to discuss things on the list more and work
to define
> > > >> streams,
> > > >> > > > update our public presence to support this definition
and
> > > encourage
> > > >> > > > additional engagement.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > +1, +1, +1
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > Long version:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > For those of you unaware, Steve Blackmon gave a nice
talk on
> the
> > > work
> > > >> > he
> > > >> > > > has been committing to Streams at ApacheCon.  As part
of that
> > talk
> > > >> and
> > > >> > > > follow on discussions, it became clear that we as a
community
> > > need to
> > > >> > do
> > > >> > > > some serious work to define ourselves, what we are
building
> and
> > > why
> > > >> it
> > > >> > is
> > > >> > > > valuable to the industry.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > If anyone who missed the presentation wants to see it, I'm
happy
> > to
> > > >> > > host a google hangout to run through it.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Can you post it, or a link to it, on the website too?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > Our website says we are a Lightweight server for
> > ActivityStreams.
> > > >> >  While
> > > >> > > > this is true to some degree, I think recent contributions
> should
> > > >> refine
> > > >> > > > this.  The new code is really about supporting flexible
> > > processing,
> > > >> > > > persistence and retrieval of data in multiple runtimes
using
> > > strongly
> > > >> > > > typed, normalized data formats like ActivityStreams.
> >  Personally,
> > > I
> > > >> > think
> > > >> > > > this slightly new direction is extremely compelling,
and the
> > > reaction
> > > >> > to
> > > >> > > > Steve's talk seems to support that.  The question remains
how
> > does
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > > community as a whole see the project?  What value is
everyone
> > > wanting
> > > >> > to
> > > >> > > > get out of this effort?
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > The session tag-line which attracted ~20 attendees was
> > 'Simplifying
> > > >> > > Real-Time data integration with Apache Streams.' From talking
to
> > > >> > > coders and data scientists I always hear frustration with
how
> much
> > > >> > > time they spend writing code and workflow to move bytes
around
> and
> > > >> > > keep track of their data assets. I'd wager any survey of
> prominent
> > > >> > > open-source libraries and popular commercial APIs would
have to
> > > >> > > conclude that schema and interface standards are completely
> absent
> > > >> > > or sparsely adopted at many layers.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Standards in hardware, operating systems, networks, and
> relational
> > > >> > > databases brought about flourishing ecosystems. I believe
> > standards
> > > in
> > > >> > > data interchange such as ActivityStreams can do the same
for the
> > > >> > > social web, but not everyone will embrace standards for
the sake
> > of
> > > >> > > standards. If we can offer integration points to the data
> sources
> > > and
> > > >> > > repositories businesses want to work with, and demonstrate
that
> > > >> > > Streams can handle 'fire-hose' scale data volumes with
> arbitrarily
> > > >> > > many intermediate hand-offs and processing steps on messages
in
> > > >> > > flight, I think we will see adoption from enterprises looking
to
> > > >> > > replace ESB-type systems that can't keep up with the volume
of
> > data
> > > >> > > generated (both inside and outside their networks) that
they
> want
> > to
> > > >> > > track.  Streams is pretty decent at ETL as well - a function
> that
> > is
> > > >> > > never going away, even as the underlying tools best suited
to
> > > >> > > performing it at scale constantly change.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This future-state I'm attempting to describe will be a better
> one
> > > for
> > > >> > > researchers, hobbyists, entrepreneurs, and consumers of
web
> > products
> > > >> > > and services.  Configuration-driven, runtime-platform agnostic,
> > > >> > > software for real-time data exchange:  where community-driven
> > > >> > > standards such as Activity Streams can codify and evolve
> > > >> > > best-practices via running code.  That is a vision that
I think
> > will
> > > >> > > help us generate significant traction going forward.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, you are
> > proposing
> > > we
> > > >> > update the mission of the project to the following:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > 1)  A flexible data processing framework that can run in multiple
> > > >> different
> > > >> > runtimes.  The goal being to abstract platform complexity and
> allow
> > > for
> > > >> > business logic reuse across real-time, enterprise, web and
> > stand-alone
> > > >> > executions.
> > > >> > 2)  As a proving ground for the adoption of data format standards,
> > > >> > specifically ActivityStreams to start.  The community would work
> to
> > > drive
> > > >> > the adoption and evolution of such standards through real-world
> > > >> experience.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > This sounds great, though it is slightly different than the
> > initially
> > > >> > proposed functionality.  Personally, I have no objection to that,
> as
> > > what
> > > >> > you describe encompasses the original goals and expands on them;
> > but,
> > > it
> > > >> > would be good for the rest of the community to weigh in.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > The fact that there are not clear answers (and corresponding
> > > >> documented
> > > >> > > > statements on the website) to these questions already
means we
> > are
> > > >> not
> > > >> > > > doing a great job of following the Apache Way.  The
Apache Way
> > is
> > > >> about
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > > community and meritocratic, community-based decision
making.
> >  The
> > > ASF
> > > >> > > > defines it as follows:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > While there is not an official list, these six principles
have
> > > been
> > > >> > cited
> > > >> > > > as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation,
which
> > is
> > > >> > > normally
> > > >> > > > referred to as "The Apache Way":
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > collaborative software development
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > commercial-friendly standard license
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > consistently high quality software
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > respectful, honest, technical-based interaction
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > faithful implementation of standards
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > security as a mandatory feature
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > All of the ASF projects share these principles.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Let's make sure we propose changes to the list, create
tickets
> > > that
> > > >> > > support
> > > >> > > > wider efforts and leverage principles like lazy consensus
to
> > keep
> > > >> > moving
> > > >> > > > forward in a way that supports the community.
> > > >> > > +1, +1, +1
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Matt Franklin <
> > > >> m.ben.franklin@gmail.com
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> > > > tl;dr version:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > We need to discuss things on the list more and work
to define
> > > >> streams,
> > > >> > > > update our public presence to support this definition
and
> > > encourage
> > > >> > > > additional engagement.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Long version:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > For those of you unaware, Steve Blackmon gave a nice
talk on
> the
> > > work
> > > >> > he
> > > >> > > > has been committing to Streams at ApacheCon.  As part
of that
> > talk
> > > >> and
> > > >> > > > follow on discussions, it became clear that we as a
community
> > > need to
> > > >> > do
> > > >> > > > some serious work to define ourselves, what we are
building
> and
> > > why
> > > >> it
> > > >> > is
> > > >> > > > valuable to the industry.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Our website says we are a Lightweight server for
> > ActivityStreams.
> > > >> >  While
> > > >> > > > this is true to some degree, I think recent contributions
> should
> > > >> refine
> > > >> > > > this.  The new code is really about supporting flexible
> > > processing,
> > > >> > > > persistence and retrieval of data in multiple runtimes
using
> > > strongly
> > > >> > > > typed, normalized data formats like ActivityStreams.
> >  Personally,
> > > I
> > > >> > think
> > > >> > > > this slightly new direction is extremely compelling,
and the
> > > reaction
> > > >> > to
> > > >> > > > Steve's talk seems to support that.  The question remains
how
> > does
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > > community as a whole see the project?  What value is
everyone
> > > wanting
> > > >> > to
> > > >> > > > get out of this effort?
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > The fact that there are not clear answers (and corresponding
> > > >> documented
> > > >> > > > statements on the website) to these questions already
means we
> > are
> > > >> not
> > > >> > > > doing a great job of following the Apache Way.  The
Apache Way
> > is
> > > >> about
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > > community and meritocratic, community-based decision
making.
> >  The
> > > ASF
> > > >> > > > defines it as follows:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > While there is not an official list, these six principles
have
> > > been
> > > >> > cited
> > > >> > > > as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation,
which
> > is
> > > >> > > normally
> > > >> > > > referred to as "The Apache Way":
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > collaborative software development
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > commercial-friendly standard license
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > consistently high quality software
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > respectful, honest, technical-based interaction
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > faithful implementation of standards
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > security as a mandatory feature
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > All of the ASF projects share these principles.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Let's make sure we propose changes to the list, create
tickets
> > > that
> > > >> > > support
> > > >> > > > wider efforts and leverage principles like lazy consensus
to
> > keep
> > > >> > moving
> > > >> > > > forward in a way that supports the community.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > --
> > > >> > > Steve Blackmon
> > > >> > > sblackmon@apache.org
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>

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