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From Chris Geer <ch...@cxtsoftware.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Continuing the Momentum
Date Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:29:57 GMT
On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Steve Blackmon <steve@blackmon.org> wrote:

> Standards-based stream processing - predictable, performant, at scale
>

Is the target audience technical folk or business folk?

>
> ?
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Matt Franklin <m.ben.franklin@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Renato MarroquĂ­n Mogrovejo <
> > renatoj.marroquin@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi devs,
> >>
> >> Yeah the title was indeed compelling. You got me on that one lol
> >> I think that you guys are right saying that for attracting new people
> maybe
> >> we should try making the project's goal something more applicable in
> real
> >> life than just being "a Lightweight server for ActivityStreams".
> >> I liked the simple explanation I heard,maybe it was the pisco but please
> >> correct me if I am wrong, "it's an abstraction layer for stream
> processing
> >> engines". IMHO we have two things defined:
> >>
> >> MISION:
> >> 1)  A flexible data processing framework that can run in multiple
> different
> >> runtimes.  The goal being to abstract platform complexity and allow for
> >> business logic reuse across real-time, enterprise, web and stand-alone
> >> executions.
> >>
> >> This is what needs to be done.
> >
> >
> >> VISION:
> >> 2)  As a proving ground for the adoption of data format standards,
> >> specifically ActivityStreams to start.  The community would work to
> drive
> >> the adoption and evolution of such standards through real-world
> experience.
> >>
> >> This is where we would like to get at some time. But also to get more
> >> community engaged, things have to simple. That is a big issue we still
> have
> >> over in Gora, and we are trying to solve it through talks, better
> >> tutorials, integration with other projects, and so forth.
> >> Just my 2cents guys.
> >>
> >
> > So what is the tag line that sums up both the mission and the vision?
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Renato M.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2014-04-14 16:31 GMT+02:00 Matt Franklin <m.ben.franklin@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Steve Blackmon <sblackmon@apache.org
> >> > >wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Matt Franklin <
> >> m.ben.franklin@gmail.com
> >> > >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > tl;dr version:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We need to discuss things on the list more and work to define
> >> streams,
> >> > > > update our public presence to support this definition and
> encourage
> >> > > > additional engagement.
> >> > > >
> >> > > +1, +1, +1
> >> > >
> >> > > > Long version:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > For those of you unaware, Steve Blackmon gave a nice talk on
the
> work
> >> > he
> >> > > > has been committing to Streams at ApacheCon.  As part of that
talk
> >> and
> >> > > > follow on discussions, it became clear that we as a community
> need to
> >> > do
> >> > > > some serious work to define ourselves, what we are building and
> why
> >> it
> >> > is
> >> > > > valuable to the industry.
> >> > > >
> >> > > If anyone who missed the presentation wants to see it, I'm happy to
> >> > > host a google hangout to run through it.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Can you post it, or a link to it, on the website too?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Our website says we are a Lightweight server for ActivityStreams.
> >> >  While
> >> > > > this is true to some degree, I think recent contributions should
> >> refine
> >> > > > this.  The new code is really about supporting flexible
> processing,
> >> > > > persistence and retrieval of data in multiple runtimes using
> strongly
> >> > > > typed, normalized data formats like ActivityStreams.  Personally,
> I
> >> > think
> >> > > > this slightly new direction is extremely compelling, and the
> reaction
> >> > to
> >> > > > Steve's talk seems to support that.  The question remains how
does
> >> the
> >> > > > community as a whole see the project?  What value is everyone
> wanting
> >> > to
> >> > > > get out of this effort?
> >> > > >
> >> > > The session tag-line which attracted ~20 attendees was 'Simplifying
> >> > > Real-Time data integration with Apache Streams.' From talking to
> >> > > coders and data scientists I always hear frustration with how much
> >> > > time they spend writing code and workflow to move bytes around and
> >> > > keep track of their data assets. I'd wager any survey of prominent
> >> > > open-source libraries and popular commercial APIs would have to
> >> > > conclude that schema and interface standards are completely absent
> >> > > or sparsely adopted at many layers.
> >> > >
> >> > > Standards in hardware, operating systems, networks, and relational
> >> > > databases brought about flourishing ecosystems. I believe standards
> in
> >> > > data interchange such as ActivityStreams can do the same for the
> >> > > social web, but not everyone will embrace standards for the sake of
> >> > > standards. If we can offer integration points to the data sources
> and
> >> > > repositories businesses want to work with, and demonstrate that
> >> > > Streams can handle 'fire-hose' scale data volumes with arbitrarily
> >> > > many intermediate hand-offs and processing steps on messages in
> >> > > flight, I think we will see adoption from enterprises looking to
> >> > > replace ESB-type systems that can't keep up with the volume of data
> >> > > generated (both inside and outside their networks) that they want
to
> >> > > track.  Streams is pretty decent at ETL as well - a function that
is
> >> > > never going away, even as the underlying tools best suited to
> >> > > performing it at scale constantly change.
> >> > >
> >> > > This future-state I'm attempting to describe will be a better one
> for
> >> > > researchers, hobbyists, entrepreneurs, and consumers of web products
> >> > > and services.  Configuration-driven, runtime-platform agnostic,
> >> > > software for real-time data exchange:  where community-driven
> >> > > standards such as Activity Streams can codify and evolve
> >> > > best-practices via running code.  That is a vision that I think will
> >> > > help us generate significant traction going forward.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, you are proposing
> we
> >> > update the mission of the project to the following:
> >> >
> >> > 1)  A flexible data processing framework that can run in multiple
> >> different
> >> > runtimes.  The goal being to abstract platform complexity and allow
> for
> >> > business logic reuse across real-time, enterprise, web and stand-alone
> >> > executions.
> >> > 2)  As a proving ground for the adoption of data format standards,
> >> > specifically ActivityStreams to start.  The community would work to
> drive
> >> > the adoption and evolution of such standards through real-world
> >> experience.
> >> >
> >> > This sounds great, though it is slightly different than the initially
> >> > proposed functionality.  Personally, I have no objection to that, as
> what
> >> > you describe encompasses the original goals and expands on them; but,
> it
> >> > would be good for the rest of the community to weigh in.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > > The fact that there are not clear answers (and corresponding
> >> documented
> >> > > > statements on the website) to these questions already means we
are
> >> not
> >> > > > doing a great job of following the Apache Way.  The Apache Way
is
> >> about
> >> > > the
> >> > > > community and meritocratic, community-based decision making.
 The
> ASF
> >> > > > defines it as follows:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > While there is not an official list, these six principles have
> been
> >> > cited
> >> > > > as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation, which
is
> >> > > normally
> >> > > > referred to as "The Apache Way":
> >> > > >
> >> > > > collaborative software development
> >> > > >
> >> > > > commercial-friendly standard license
> >> > > >
> >> > > > consistently high quality software
> >> > > >
> >> > > > respectful, honest, technical-based interaction
> >> > > >
> >> > > > faithful implementation of standards
> >> > > >
> >> > > > security as a mandatory feature
> >> > > >
> >> > > > All of the ASF projects share these principles.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Let's make sure we propose changes to the list, create tickets
> that
> >> > > support
> >> > > > wider efforts and leverage principles like lazy consensus to
keep
> >> > moving
> >> > > > forward in a way that supports the community.
> >> > > +1, +1, +1
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Matt Franklin <
> >> m.ben.franklin@gmail.com
> >> > >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > tl;dr version:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We need to discuss things on the list more and work to define
> >> streams,
> >> > > > update our public presence to support this definition and
> encourage
> >> > > > additional engagement.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Long version:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > For those of you unaware, Steve Blackmon gave a nice talk on
the
> work
> >> > he
> >> > > > has been committing to Streams at ApacheCon.  As part of that
talk
> >> and
> >> > > > follow on discussions, it became clear that we as a community
> need to
> >> > do
> >> > > > some serious work to define ourselves, what we are building and
> why
> >> it
> >> > is
> >> > > > valuable to the industry.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Our website says we are a Lightweight server for ActivityStreams.
> >> >  While
> >> > > > this is true to some degree, I think recent contributions should
> >> refine
> >> > > > this.  The new code is really about supporting flexible
> processing,
> >> > > > persistence and retrieval of data in multiple runtimes using
> strongly
> >> > > > typed, normalized data formats like ActivityStreams.  Personally,
> I
> >> > think
> >> > > > this slightly new direction is extremely compelling, and the
> reaction
> >> > to
> >> > > > Steve's talk seems to support that.  The question remains how
does
> >> the
> >> > > > community as a whole see the project?  What value is everyone
> wanting
> >> > to
> >> > > > get out of this effort?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The fact that there are not clear answers (and corresponding
> >> documented
> >> > > > statements on the website) to these questions already means we
are
> >> not
> >> > > > doing a great job of following the Apache Way.  The Apache Way
is
> >> about
> >> > > the
> >> > > > community and meritocratic, community-based decision making.
 The
> ASF
> >> > > > defines it as follows:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > While there is not an official list, these six principles have
> been
> >> > cited
> >> > > > as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation, which
is
> >> > > normally
> >> > > > referred to as "The Apache Way":
> >> > > >
> >> > > > collaborative software development
> >> > > >
> >> > > > commercial-friendly standard license
> >> > > >
> >> > > > consistently high quality software
> >> > > >
> >> > > > respectful, honest, technical-based interaction
> >> > > >
> >> > > > faithful implementation of standards
> >> > > >
> >> > > > security as a mandatory feature
> >> > > >
> >> > > > All of the ASF projects share these principles.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Let's make sure we propose changes to the list, create tickets
> that
> >> > > support
> >> > > > wider efforts and leverage principles like lazy consensus to
keep
> >> > moving
> >> > > > forward in a way that supports the community.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Steve Blackmon
> >> > > sblackmon@apache.org
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>

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