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From Matt Franklin <m.ben.frank...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Continuing the Momentum
Date Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:37:26 GMT
On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Chris Geer <chris@cxtsoftware.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Steve Blackmon <steve@blackmon.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Standards-based stream processing - predictable, performant, at scale
> >
>
> Is the target audience technical folk or business folk?
>

Target audience is our potential users.  Technical in nature, but it still
needs to be succinct.


>
> >
> > ?
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Matt Franklin <m.ben.franklin@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Renato MarroquĂ­n Mogrovejo <
> > > renatoj.marroquin@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi devs,
> > >>
> > >> Yeah the title was indeed compelling. You got me on that one lol
> > >> I think that you guys are right saying that for attracting new people
> > maybe
> > >> we should try making the project's goal something more applicable in
> > real
> > >> life than just being "a Lightweight server for ActivityStreams".
> > >> I liked the simple explanation I heard,maybe it was the pisco but
> please
> > >> correct me if I am wrong, "it's an abstraction layer for stream
> > processing
> > >> engines". IMHO we have two things defined:
> > >>
> > >> MISION:
> > >> 1)  A flexible data processing framework that can run in multiple
> > different
> > >> runtimes.  The goal being to abstract platform complexity and allow
> for
> > >> business logic reuse across real-time, enterprise, web and stand-alone
> > >> executions.
> > >>
> > >> This is what needs to be done.
> > >
> > >
> > >> VISION:
> > >> 2)  As a proving ground for the adoption of data format standards,
> > >> specifically ActivityStreams to start.  The community would work to
> > drive
> > >> the adoption and evolution of such standards through real-world
> > experience.
> > >>
> > >> This is where we would like to get at some time. But also to get more
> > >> community engaged, things have to simple. That is a big issue we still
> > have
> > >> over in Gora, and we are trying to solve it through talks, better
> > >> tutorials, integration with other projects, and so forth.
> > >> Just my 2cents guys.
> > >>
> > >
> > > So what is the tag line that sums up both the mission and the vision?
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Renato M.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 2014-04-14 16:31 GMT+02:00 Matt Franklin <m.ben.franklin@gmail.com>:
> > >>
> > >> > On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Steve Blackmon <
> sblackmon@apache.org
> > >> > >wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Matt Franklin <
> > >> m.ben.franklin@gmail.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > > > tl;dr version:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > We need to discuss things on the list more and work to define
> > >> streams,
> > >> > > > update our public presence to support this definition and
> > encourage
> > >> > > > additional engagement.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > +1, +1, +1
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Long version:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > For those of you unaware, Steve Blackmon gave a nice talk
on the
> > work
> > >> > he
> > >> > > > has been committing to Streams at ApacheCon.  As part of
that
> talk
> > >> and
> > >> > > > follow on discussions, it became clear that we as a community
> > need to
> > >> > do
> > >> > > > some serious work to define ourselves, what we are building
and
> > why
> > >> it
> > >> > is
> > >> > > > valuable to the industry.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > If anyone who missed the presentation wants to see it, I'm happy
> to
> > >> > > host a google hangout to run through it.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > Can you post it, or a link to it, on the website too?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Our website says we are a Lightweight server for
> ActivityStreams.
> > >> >  While
> > >> > > > this is true to some degree, I think recent contributions
should
> > >> refine
> > >> > > > this.  The new code is really about supporting flexible
> > processing,
> > >> > > > persistence and retrieval of data in multiple runtimes using
> > strongly
> > >> > > > typed, normalized data formats like ActivityStreams.
>  Personally,
> > I
> > >> > think
> > >> > > > this slightly new direction is extremely compelling, and
the
> > reaction
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > Steve's talk seems to support that.  The question remains
how
> does
> > >> the
> > >> > > > community as a whole see the project?  What value is everyone
> > wanting
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > get out of this effort?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > The session tag-line which attracted ~20 attendees was
> 'Simplifying
> > >> > > Real-Time data integration with Apache Streams.' From talking
to
> > >> > > coders and data scientists I always hear frustration with how
much
> > >> > > time they spend writing code and workflow to move bytes around
and
> > >> > > keep track of their data assets. I'd wager any survey of prominent
> > >> > > open-source libraries and popular commercial APIs would have
to
> > >> > > conclude that schema and interface standards are completely absent
> > >> > > or sparsely adopted at many layers.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Standards in hardware, operating systems, networks, and relational
> > >> > > databases brought about flourishing ecosystems. I believe
> standards
> > in
> > >> > > data interchange such as ActivityStreams can do the same for
the
> > >> > > social web, but not everyone will embrace standards for the sake
> of
> > >> > > standards. If we can offer integration points to the data sources
> > and
> > >> > > repositories businesses want to work with, and demonstrate that
> > >> > > Streams can handle 'fire-hose' scale data volumes with arbitrarily
> > >> > > many intermediate hand-offs and processing steps on messages
in
> > >> > > flight, I think we will see adoption from enterprises looking
to
> > >> > > replace ESB-type systems that can't keep up with the volume of
> data
> > >> > > generated (both inside and outside their networks) that they
want
> to
> > >> > > track.  Streams is pretty decent at ETL as well - a function
that
> is
> > >> > > never going away, even as the underlying tools best suited to
> > >> > > performing it at scale constantly change.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > This future-state I'm attempting to describe will be a better
one
> > for
> > >> > > researchers, hobbyists, entrepreneurs, and consumers of web
> products
> > >> > > and services.  Configuration-driven, runtime-platform agnostic,
> > >> > > software for real-time data exchange:  where community-driven
> > >> > > standards such as Activity Streams can codify and evolve
> > >> > > best-practices via running code.  That is a vision that I think
> will
> > >> > > help us generate significant traction going forward.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, you are
> proposing
> > we
> > >> > update the mission of the project to the following:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1)  A flexible data processing framework that can run in multiple
> > >> different
> > >> > runtimes.  The goal being to abstract platform complexity and allow
> > for
> > >> > business logic reuse across real-time, enterprise, web and
> stand-alone
> > >> > executions.
> > >> > 2)  As a proving ground for the adoption of data format standards,
> > >> > specifically ActivityStreams to start.  The community would work to
> > drive
> > >> > the adoption and evolution of such standards through real-world
> > >> experience.
> > >> >
> > >> > This sounds great, though it is slightly different than the
> initially
> > >> > proposed functionality.  Personally, I have no objection to that,
as
> > what
> > >> > you describe encompasses the original goals and expands on them;
> but,
> > it
> > >> > would be good for the rest of the community to weigh in.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > The fact that there are not clear answers (and corresponding
> > >> documented
> > >> > > > statements on the website) to these questions already means
we
> are
> > >> not
> > >> > > > doing a great job of following the Apache Way.  The Apache
Way
> is
> > >> about
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > community and meritocratic, community-based decision making.
>  The
> > ASF
> > >> > > > defines it as follows:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > While there is not an official list, these six principles
have
> > been
> > >> > cited
> > >> > > > as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation,
which
> is
> > >> > > normally
> > >> > > > referred to as "The Apache Way":
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > collaborative software development
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > commercial-friendly standard license
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > consistently high quality software
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > respectful, honest, technical-based interaction
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > faithful implementation of standards
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > security as a mandatory feature
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > All of the ASF projects share these principles.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Let's make sure we propose changes to the list, create tickets
> > that
> > >> > > support
> > >> > > > wider efforts and leverage principles like lazy consensus
to
> keep
> > >> > moving
> > >> > > > forward in a way that supports the community.
> > >> > > +1, +1, +1
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Matt Franklin <
> > >> m.ben.franklin@gmail.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > > > tl;dr version:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > We need to discuss things on the list more and work to define
> > >> streams,
> > >> > > > update our public presence to support this definition and
> > encourage
> > >> > > > additional engagement.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Long version:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > For those of you unaware, Steve Blackmon gave a nice talk
on the
> > work
> > >> > he
> > >> > > > has been committing to Streams at ApacheCon.  As part of
that
> talk
> > >> and
> > >> > > > follow on discussions, it became clear that we as a community
> > need to
> > >> > do
> > >> > > > some serious work to define ourselves, what we are building
and
> > why
> > >> it
> > >> > is
> > >> > > > valuable to the industry.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Our website says we are a Lightweight server for
> ActivityStreams.
> > >> >  While
> > >> > > > this is true to some degree, I think recent contributions
should
> > >> refine
> > >> > > > this.  The new code is really about supporting flexible
> > processing,
> > >> > > > persistence and retrieval of data in multiple runtimes using
> > strongly
> > >> > > > typed, normalized data formats like ActivityStreams.
>  Personally,
> > I
> > >> > think
> > >> > > > this slightly new direction is extremely compelling, and
the
> > reaction
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > Steve's talk seems to support that.  The question remains
how
> does
> > >> the
> > >> > > > community as a whole see the project?  What value is everyone
> > wanting
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > get out of this effort?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > The fact that there are not clear answers (and corresponding
> > >> documented
> > >> > > > statements on the website) to these questions already means
we
> are
> > >> not
> > >> > > > doing a great job of following the Apache Way.  The Apache
Way
> is
> > >> about
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > community and meritocratic, community-based decision making.
>  The
> > ASF
> > >> > > > defines it as follows:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > While there is not an official list, these six principles
have
> > been
> > >> > cited
> > >> > > > as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation,
which
> is
> > >> > > normally
> > >> > > > referred to as "The Apache Way":
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > collaborative software development
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > commercial-friendly standard license
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > consistently high quality software
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > respectful, honest, technical-based interaction
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > faithful implementation of standards
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > security as a mandatory feature
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > All of the ASF projects share these principles.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Let's make sure we propose changes to the list, create tickets
> > that
> > >> > > support
> > >> > > > wider efforts and leverage principles like lazy consensus
to
> keep
> > >> > moving
> > >> > > > forward in a way that supports the community.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --
> > >> > > Steve Blackmon
> > >> > > sblackmon@apache.org
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
>

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