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From Noah Slater <nsla...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Incubator board report not circulated
Date Fri, 11 Apr 2014 15:10:34 GMT
Thank you both for your replies. That is, indeed, very encouraging.

I have no doubt that WSO2 has a lot of experience in this area, and is
a model of how to operate within an Apache community.

It is still important to be circumspect and consider all the major
questions as we prepare for graduation (because not everyone in the
community has the same experience as we do). But I am happy that we've
done that now.

On 11 April 2014 10:32, Afkham Azeez <afkham@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for your comments Noah. You raise some very valid concerns, and you
> can rest assured that the PMC & WSO2 are genuinely interested & are working
> towards attracting more diversity.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> People are allowed to do whatever they please. And it's certainly not
>> wrong for WSO2 to hire people from the community. I don't disagree
>> with that at all. I'm making an altogether different point (which I
>> will clarify below).
>>
>> I must also make it very clear that I do not believe Stratos is having
>> issues operating in the open, nor have I ever implied that I think
>> this.
>>
>> My concern is that that Stratos PMC is still heavily skewed with WSO2
>> employees. This is a problem because what if WSO2 suddenly loses
>> interest in the project? Will all of those PMC members continue to
>> contribute the same amount?
>>
>> I'm not imputing anything about WSO2 here either. This is a *general
>> problem*, and one which the foundation hopes to address with *every*
>> podling and every TLP.
>>
>> We want to attract a broad base of diverse contributors so that we
>> insulate ourselves and our projects from the whims, caprice, and
>> changing life circumstances of our contributors, and the organisations
>> that pay them to work on our projects.
>>
>> Another project I am involved with at Apache lost its progenitor, and
>> one of the dominant companies employing people in the PMC "went
>> rogue". We survived, thankfully.
>
>
> I can assure you that WSO2 will not go rogue. Most of us senior folks at
> WSO2 have our roots in Apache & FOSS, and value the core values of the ASF
> as well as the Apache way. Even within WSO2, we follow the Apache way as
> much as possible. Even strategic design discussions & day to day development
> discussions happen on architecture@wso2.org & dev@wso2.org community mailing
> lists. We have private mailing lists only for sensitive customer related
> discussions, internal company related matters. This is one of the reasons
> that I still enjoy working for WSO2. We are genuinely interested in getting
> as much diversity as possible. In addition to this project being donated by
> WSO2, the committers from WSO2 have a personal attachment towards the
> project since they have seen the project grow up from its infancy. If you
> look at the Axis & Synapse projects where WSO2 employees are major
> contributors, you can see that many of the people who have left WSO2 for
> higher studies (grad school) as well as some who have joined other
> companies, are still active on those lists due to this personal attachment
> towards those projects.
>
>>
>> But it was a close call. And it
>> probably wouldn't've happened unless the project had been as diverse
>> as it was.
>>
>> So again: yes, I find it concerning that the makeup of the PMC isn't
>> more diverse. I hope that this will be a priority for us until we're
>> satisfied that we've diversified enough. Because again: doing so
>> ensures the health of the project!
>>
>> I'll be honest: I feel a little perturbed by the reaction I've got in
>> the last few weeks bringing this up. My attempts at productive
>> conversation about this appear to have been met with defensiveness,
>> which is not what I expect.
>>
>> The question I've brought up have been ignored or side-stepped, and my
>> position has been mischaracterised several times. So I don't know if
>> I'm doing a poor job of communicating or what here.
>>
>> And while I'm happy to go along with the other mentors, this makes me
>> feel like the graduation is being rushed.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 April 2014 06:55, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sanjiva@wso2.com> wrote:
>> > Noah totally +1 for diversity.
>> >
>> > However, are people allowed to switch employment? Is it wrong for WSO2
>> > (for
>> > example) to hire someone else?
>> >
>> > *That's* the point of Roy's mail.
>> >
>> > Clearly your views are a bit different .. to me the MOST important thing
>> > is
>> > that we make decisions and execute in a purely open, Apache Way way. So
>> > far
>> > its very clear this poddling has done that and I believe all mentors but
>> > you
>> > believe that. I don't think you disagree but I didn't want to attempt to
>> > state your position.
>> >
>> > So, this group has done what it needs to do. The job NEVER finishes of
>> > course - every email, every discussion, every event will either further
>> > or
>> > damage the environment. That's what we need to be constantly vigilant
>> > about
>> > and get right. Some of your suggestions ref board reports are awesome.
>> > Thank
>> > you.
>> >
>> > Sanjiva.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I am happy with the edit and have signed off. Thanks.
>> >>
>> >> Ant, saw that last month, yeah. From my perspective (and for the
>> >> others on this list) diversity is one of the ways the foundation
>> >> hedges its bets. It insulates us from people, and indeed
>> >> organisations, losing interest in a project, or doing something weird.
>> >>
>> >> I wouldn't argue that diversity ought to be a requirement for
>> >> graduation. But if a podling is having a hard time diversifying the
>> >> PMC, that's a potential red flag. Why is it having such a hard time?
>> >> Are people working on it?
>> >>
>> >> In the case of Stratos, the answers to that last question is yes. :)
>> >>
>> >> On 8 April 2014 14:50, ant elder <ant.elder@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > One of the reasons diversity may not be seen as the most important
>> >> > issue
>> >> > now
>> >> > could be from the discussion around the email from Roy saying that
>> >> > there
>> >> > is
>> >> > no diversity requirement, eg -
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-stratos-dev/201403.mbox/%3CCADENRmrH76dT%2BM02d3HKeuBiMeD%2BOsQvsHBSBhX%3DDZe8E2V%2BCg%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>> >> >
>> >> >    ...ant
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I would mention that the diversity question has come up. It was
>> >> >> flagged in November, and it was flagged last month.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It was mentioned as the top most important issue to address in
>> >> >> January. This month it is not even listed. (In fact, number 2 is
>> >> >> completely empty. Error?)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Community diversity was a concern during the last report, and
it
>> >> >> has
>> >> >> been addressed by bringing in a number of non-WSO2 committers &
PPMC
>> >> >> members."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is misleading IMO. It is *being* addressed, but it hasn't
been
>> >> >> addressed.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There was a lengthy discussion about it, and my take-away was that
>> >> >> other mentors think the project is on track to solve these issues.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But I feel like the discussion, and indeed status of this as a
WIP,
>> >> >> should be reflected in the report.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 8 April 2014 14:08, Afkham Azeez <afkham@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Can we expand the section on diversity? I would say something
>> >> >> >> like:
>> >> >> >> the project recognises that diversity is area of concern
and is
>> >> >> >> actively working to attract new and diverse contributors.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I would word it as "The project is actively working towards
>> >> >> > further
>> >> >> > diversification by attracting more non-WSO2 contributors"
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On 8 April 2014 12:19, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org>
wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Devs,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I recently asked about the board report, and was
told it was
>> >> >> >> > being
>> >> >> >> > prepared. I didn't hear anything else back about
that, nor did
>> >> >> >> > I
>> >> >> >> > see
>> >> >> >> > anything on the list.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I just checked the wiki:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2014
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > We have a board report filled in there. But I can't
find any
>> >> >> >> > mention
>> >> >> >> > of it on the lists. Was this circulated? How was
this done?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > In future, reports should be drafted with help from
the
>> >> >> >> > community,
>> >> >> >> > so
>> >> >> >> > that people have a chance to chip in. Also, this
helps to alert
>> >> >> >> > your
>> >> >> >> > mentors that there is something to review.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Apologies if a note was sent out. I searched my email
for it
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > cannot find anything.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > --
>> >> >> >> > Noah Slater
>> >> >> >> > https://twitter.com/nslater
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Noah Slater
>> >> >> >> https://twitter.com/nslater
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > Afkham Azeez
>> >> >> > Director of Architecture; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com,
>> >> >> > Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > email: azeez@wso2.com cell: +94 77 3320919
>> >> >> > blog: http://blog.afkham.org
>> >> >> > twitter: http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez
>> >> >> > linked-in: http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Lean . Enterprise . Middleware
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Noah Slater
>> >> >> https://twitter.com/nslater
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Noah Slater
>> >> https://twitter.com/nslater
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D.
>> > Founder, Chairman & CEO; WSO2, Inc.;  http://wso2.com/
>> > email: sanjiva@wso2.com; office: (+1 650 745 4499 | +94 11 214 5345)
>> > x5700;
>> > cell: +94 77 787 6880 | +1 408 466 5099; voip: +1 650 265 8311
>> > blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/; twitter: @sanjiva
>> >
>> > Lean . Enterprise . Middleware
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Noah Slater
>> https://twitter.com/nslater
>
>
>
>
> --
> Afkham Azeez
> Director of Architecture; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com,
> Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/
>
> email: azeez@wso2.com cell: +94 77 3320919
> blog: http://blog.afkham.org
> twitter: http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez
> linked-in: http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez
>
> Lean . Enterprise . Middleware
>



-- 
Noah Slater
https://twitter.com/nslater

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