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From Reynold Xin <r...@databricks.com>
Subject Re: Handling questions in the mailing lists
Date Mon, 07 Nov 2016 04:08:32 GMT
You have substantially underestimated how opinionated people can be on
mailing lists too :)

On Sunday, November 6, 2016, Maciej Szymkiewicz <mszymkiewicz@gmail.com>
wrote:

> You have to remember that Stack Overflow crowd (like me) is highly
> opinionated, so many questions, which could be just fine on the mailing
> list, will be quickly downvoted and / or closed as off-topic. Just
> saying...
>
> --
> Best,
> Maciej
>
>
> On 11/07/2016 04:03 AM, Reynold Xin wrote:
>
> OK I've checked on the ASF member list (which is private so there is no
> public archive).
>
> It is not against any ASF rule to recommend StackOverflow as a place for
> users to ask questions. I don't think we can or should delete the existing
> user@spark list either, but we can certainly make SO more visible than it
> is.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@databricks.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rxin@databricks.com');>> wrote:
>
>> Actually after talking with more ASF members, I believe the only policy
>> is that development decisions have to be made and announced on ASF
>> properties (dev list or jira), but user questions don't have to.
>>
>> I'm going to double check this. If it is true, I would actually recommend
>> us moving entirely over the Q&A part of the user list to stackoverflow, or
>> at least make that the recommended way rather than the existing user list
>> which is not very scalable.
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2016, Nicholas Chammas <
>> nicholas.chammas@gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nicholas.chammas@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>
>>> We’ve discussed several times upgrading our communication tools, as far
>>> back as 2014 and maybe even before that too. The bottom line is that we
>>> can’t due to ASF rules requiring the use of ASF-managed mailing lists.
>>>
>>> For some history, see this discussion:
>>>
>>>    - https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412.
>>>    mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oY5NO2dHWJ_kVEoP+Ng@
>>>    mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>    <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oY5NO2dHWJ_kVEoP+Ng@mail.gmail.com%3E>
>>>    - https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501.
>>>    mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=TKTxY_sYw@
>>>    mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>    <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=TKTxY_sYw@mail.gmail.com%3E>
>>>
>>> (It’s ironic that it’s difficult to follow the past discussion on why we
>>> can’t change our official communication tools due to those very tools…)
>>>
>>> Nick
>>> ​
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:24 PM Ricardo Almeida <
>>> ricardo.almeida@actnowib.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I fell Assaf point is quite relevant if we want to move this project
>>>> forward from the Spark user perspective (as I do). In fact, we're
>>>> still using 20th century tools (mailing lists) with some add-ons (like
>>>> Stack Overflow).
>>>>
>>>> As usually, Sean and Cody's contributions are very to the point.
>>>> I fell it is indeed a matter of of culture (hard to enforce) and tools
>>>> (much easier). Isn't it?
>>>>
>>>> On 2 November 2016 at 16:36, Cody Koeninger <cody@koeninger.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So concrete things people could do
>>>>>
>>>>> - users could tag subject lines appropriately to the component they're
>>>>> asking about
>>>>>
>>>>> - contributors could monitor user@ for tags relating to components
>>>>> they've worked on.
>>>>> I'd be surprised if my miss rate for any mailing list questions
>>>>> well-labeled as Kafka was higher than 5%
>>>>>
>>>>> - committers could be more aggressive about soliciting and merging PRs
>>>>> to improve documentation.
>>>>> It's a lot easier to answer even poorly-asked questions with a link to
>>>>> relevant docs.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 7:39 AM, Sean Owen <sowen@cloudera.com>
wrote:
>>>>> > There's already reviews@ and issues@. dev@ is for project
>>>>> development itself
>>>>> > and I think is OK. You're suggesting splitting up user@ and I
>>>>> sympathize
>>>>> > with the motivation. Experience tells me that we'll have a beginner@
>>>>> that's
>>>>> > then totally ignored, and people will quickly learn to post to
>>>>> advanced@ to
>>>>> > get attention, and we'll be back where we started. Putting it in
JIRA
>>>>> > doesn't help. I don't think this a problem that is merely down to
>>>>> lack of
>>>>> > process. It actually requires cultivating a culture change on the
>>>>> community
>>>>> > list.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:11 PM Mendelson, Assaf <
>>>>> Assaf.Mendelson@rsa.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> What I am suggesting is basically to fix that.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> For example, we might say that mailing list A is only for voting,
>>>>> mailing
>>>>> >> list B is only for PR and have something like stack overflow
for
>>>>> developer
>>>>> >> questions (I would even go as far as to have beginner, intermediate
>>>>> and
>>>>> >> advanced mailing list for users and beginner/advanced for dev).
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> This can easily be done using stack overflow tags, however,
that
>>>>> would
>>>>> >> probably be harder to manage.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Maybe using special jira tags and manage it in jira?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Anyway as I said, the main issue is not user questions (except
maybe
>>>>> >> advanced ones) but more for dev questions. It is so easy to
get
>>>>> lost in the
>>>>> >> chatter that it makes it very hard for people to learn spark
>>>>> internals…
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Assaf.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> From: Sean Owen [mailto:sowen@cloudera.com]
>>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 2:07 PM
>>>>> >> To: Mendelson, Assaf; dev@spark.apache.org
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: Handling questions in the mailing lists
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I think that unfortunately mailing lists don't scale well. This
one
>>>>> has
>>>>> >> thousands of subscribers with different interests and levels
of
>>>>> experience.
>>>>> >> For any given person, most messages will be irrelevant. I also
find
>>>>> that a
>>>>> >> lot of questions on user@ are not well-asked, aren't an SSCCE
>>>>> >> (http://sscce.org/), not something most people are going to
bother
>>>>> replying
>>>>> >> to even if they could answer. I almost entirely ignore user@
>>>>> because there
>>>>> >> are higher-priority channels like PRs to deal with, that already
>>>>> have
>>>>> >> hundreds of messages per day. This is why little of it gets
an
>>>>> answer -- too
>>>>> >> noisy.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> We have to have official mailing lists, in any event, to have
some
>>>>> >> official channel for things like votes and announcements. It's
not
>>>>> wrong to
>>>>> >> ask questions on user@ of course, but a lot of the questions
I see
>>>>> could
>>>>> >> have been answered with research of existing docs or looking
at the
>>>>> code. I
>>>>> >> think that given the scale of the list, it's not wrong to assert
>>>>> that this
>>>>> >> is sort of a prerequisite for asking thousands of people to
answer
>>>>> one's
>>>>> >> question. But we can't enforce that.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The situation will get better to the extent people ask better
>>>>> questions,
>>>>> >> help other people ask better questions, and answer good questions.
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> >> encourage anyone feeling this way to try to help along those
>>>>> dimensions.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:32 AM assaf.mendelson <
>>>>> assaf.mendelson@rsa.com>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Hi,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I know this is a little off topic but I wanted to raise an issue
>>>>> about
>>>>> >> handling questions in the mailing list (this is true both for
the
>>>>> user
>>>>> >> mailing list and the dev but since there are other options such
as
>>>>> stack
>>>>> >> overflow for user questions, this is more problematic in dev).
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Let’s say I ask a question (as I recently did). Unfortunately
this
>>>>> was
>>>>> >> during spark summit in Europe so probably people were busy.
In any
>>>>> case no
>>>>> >> one answered.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The problem is, that if no one answers very soon, the question
will
>>>>> almost
>>>>> >> certainly remain unanswered because new messages will simply
drown
>>>>> it.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> This is a common issue not just for questions but for any comment
>>>>> or idea
>>>>> >> which is not immediately picked up.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I believe we should have a method of handling this.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Generally, I would say these types of things belong in stack
>>>>> overflow,
>>>>> >> after all, the way it is built is perfect for this. More seasoned
>>>>> spark
>>>>> >> contributors and committers can periodically check out unanswered
>>>>> questions
>>>>> >> and answer them.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The problem is that stack overflow (as well as other targets
such
>>>>> as the
>>>>> >> databricks forums) tend to have a more user based orientation.
This
>>>>> means
>>>>> >> that any spark internal question will almost certainly remain
>>>>> unanswered.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I was wondering if we could come up with a solution for this.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Assaf.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ________________________________
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> View this message in context: Handling questions in the mailing
>>>>> lists
>>>>> >> Sent from the Apache Spark Developers List mailing list archive
at
>>>>> >> Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>
>

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