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From Tauren Mills <>
Subject Re: Versioned Reference Manual
Date Fri, 27 May 2011 20:27:36 GMT

My comment was not directed at you in any way, I'm sorry if it came
across that way. I appreciate your suggestion, as it sounds like a CMS
with markdown support might be better than what's currently in use.
Les' concern about ASF hosting requirements is what prompted me to
respond, not your helpful suggestion.

My intent was simply to vent some of my personal frustrations in
regards to the policies and structure imposed by the ASF. I understand
there are reasons for these policies that go far beyond my simple
outside-looking-in viewpoint. But if I was inside the ASF, I'd want to
be aware of how things are being perceived from the outside. Perhaps
I'm alone in my views, but what if I'm not?

I'm currently involved in a real-time application with much of the
logic running on the client. We are using lots of javascript
technologies both in the browser and the server, include backbone.js,
node.js, and I get to see first hand the amazing speed at
which these technologies are improving and developing and the massive
communities being built around them. The sheer scale of those
contributing is amazing, and I attribute much of that to the toolsets
they are using and the lack of a governing body.

Unfortunately, I don't think these projects would be anything like
they are today if they were part of something like the ASF. This is a
real shame, because the ASF has many really great projects that could
utilize similar techniques as those projects. I would like to see ASF
projects given the opportunity to grow and build communities using the
tools and means they deem most appropriate.

Of course, at some point, a certain level of governance needs to take
place in any community that has grown past a certain size. But there
is a middle ground between the wild west and the ASF. I simply think
the ASF should evolve more toward that middle ground. How to do that
while maintaining the value that the ASF currently provides its
projects will of course be challenging. And I do recognize the value
the ASF affords:

I'm sure there's a better forum for these comments than here, so I'll
wrap up. Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone and will look for a
better forum to vent in next time. I think Shiro is a great project
and very much appreciate everything that Les and the ASF has done to
foster it.


On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Craig L Russell
<> wrote:
> Tauren,
> Please read my message again.
> I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood it.
> Craig
> On May 27, 2011, at 11:49 AM, Tauren Mills wrote:
>> Les,
>> I didn't realize the ASF mandated what tools its projects could use.
>> That seems counter-productive to me. But if so, perhaps the new CMS
>> would be the simpler solution for now.
>> It's a shame that the ASF would choose to limit its projects from
>> using tools that it does not provide. There are solutions out there
>> that are improving, simplifying, and streamlining development
>> processes at breakneck speeds. I believe that projects which embrace
>> and stay current with these new techniques have a significant
>> advantages. I worry that ASF projects are becoming looked upon as old
>> dinosaurs that don't know how to keep up with the cool kids. Do we
>> really want to be Blackberry wielding developers?
>> Tauren
>> On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Craig L Russell
>> <> wrote:
>>> The ASF recently converted to a CMS with a home-grown editor with
>>> markdown
>>> for the main Apache site. Other Apache projects can also use the
>>> infrastructure as well. Contact infra@ for details on how to migrate the
>>> Shiro site to the new CMS.
>>> Craig
>>> On May 27, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Les Hazlewood wrote:
>>>> Hi Tauren,
>>>> This is pretty cool - I'd have to ask the PMC and maybe the ASF Board
>>>> how this should work though - as I understand it, all ASF content must
>>>> be hosted by ASF resources.  I'm not sure how git would/could be used
>>>> for something like this.  I.e. if you'd consider git an 'editor', but
>>>> the final output is put in our SVN? Not sure...
>>>> Does anyone know or have any ideas? Kalle? Alan? Craig?
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> --
>>>> Les Hazlewood
>>>> Founder, Katasoft, Inc.
>>>> Application Security Products & Professional Apache Shiro Support and
>>>> Training:
>>>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tauren Mills <>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I was just browsing the new documentation section on the
>>>>> html5boilerplate site and found an example of using github with
>>>>> Markdown to allow anyone to edit the docs. This is very similar to
>>>>> what I was suggesting previously. Take a look and see just how easy it
>>>>> would be for people to contribute:
>>>>> Clicking the "Edit this Page" link takes you to a github page with an
>>>>> editor opened. No yucky xml or html tags to deal with. And they give
>>>>> you the choice of 9 difference markup languages to use.
>>>>> This solution is slightly different than what I was proposing since
>>>>> they are using the github wiki. But it is git-backed and should work
>>>>> just as well. It also appears to be deployed to their custom website,
>>>>> not having to reside on a github hosted site.
>>>>> Food for thought...
>>>>> Tauren
>>> Craig L Russell
>>> Architect, Oracle
>>> 408 276-5638
>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Oracle
> 408 276-5638
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

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