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From Gregg Wonderly <ge...@cox.net>
Subject Re: OSGi
Date Thu, 02 Feb 2017 15:25:35 GMT
I am a fan of “one jar” because I get real tired of spending time “packaging” when
the class loading mechanisms already provide “segregation”.  I understand how “pretty”
packaging is and how everyone can be completely excited about a clean view of dependencies.
 However, when I package something that works, I don’t want to hand someone 5 things.  The
“jar” file has been “click to run” file type for a long time.  That, for me means
that you should be able to get everything you need from that jar.  The problem that clickable
jar files suffer from, is that lack of use of Java for desktop apps.  Instead, the server
mentality of 10s of jars from 10s of places, integration, versioning, etc., have created the
“lots of pieces is fine” viewpoint and tooling around that has made it pretty much impossible
to easily create one jar, without “custom” packaging.

I like to solve problems once, not over and over again.  We need to make sure and think about
“tools” that make whatever packaging is decided on, trivial to create.  Think about using
annotations to segregate pieces into the packages that you want them to be in.  Think about
runtime dependency graphs being expressible in annotations as well, so that we might be able
to utilize a composite class loader to “get” dependent jars from an appropriate source.
 This would allow great, dynamic binding to occur in the class loader, and still provide a
single class loader view of the context so that TCCL and other parts of the Java runtime will
still work in non-jini packages.


> On Feb 1, 2017, at 7:44 PM, Peter <jini@zeus.net.au> wrote:
> Thanks Gregg,
> I think it's necessary to continue supporting preferred class loading for those who don't
use osgi or maven.  Rio already has a maven class resolver RMIClassLoaderSPI implementation.
 But we also need to ensure we can still solve the same problems that preferred class loading
addresses in modular environments.
> We also need to consider how existing implementations can transition to a modular framework,
should developers want to.
> River / Jini's classdepandjar duplicates classes in jar files.  Maven or OSGi modules
usually don't.
> In a modular version of Gregg's use case scenario, the shared Entries wouldn't be included
in the proxy codebase but instead be imported from another module / bundle / package.
> The Entry's would be imported by the client and proxy modules / bundles, avoiding unnecessary
downloads and ensuring shared visibility.  The client and proxy will need to have an overlapping
import package version range and the currently utilised package at the client will need to
be within the proxy's imported version range, so it will be wired / resolved correctly.
> We should look at implementing a modular test case of what your doing, to test our OSGiClassProvider.
> Supporting OSGi is likely to require delayed unmarshalling.  Logical comparisons of Package
version Entry's will be required before proxy's can be downloaded/ unmarshalled.
> The lookup service only provides exact matching.  However it would be possible to perform
a limited range of version matching with wild cards without delayed unmarshalling.
> Modular frameworks reduce downloads by utilising already downloaded code when compatible.
> Regards,
> Peter
> Sent from my Samsung device.
>   Include original message
> ---- Original message ----
> From: Gregg Wonderly <gergg@cox.net>
> Sent: 02/02/2017 06:56:43 am
> To: dev@river.apache.org
> Subject: Re: OSGi
> Part of the “preferred” is to keep downloads from happening.  But the other is the
fact that the UI is already using/linked to specific sources of the Entry classes that it
uses for finding the name of the service, the icon and other details.  There are serviceUI
classes which are also already bound at the time of service discovery and the serviceUI for
that service needs to resolve to those classes, not any in the codebase jars for the service.

> Gregg 
>>  On Feb 1, 2017, at 5:52 AM, Peter <jini@zeus.net.au> wrote: 
>>  Gregg, 
>>  Have you got some more detail on your Entry classes that need to be preferred? 
>>  Thanks, 
>>  Peter. 
>>  Sent from my Samsung device. 
>>    Include original message 
>>  ---- Original message ---- 
>>  From: Gregg Wonderly <gergg@cox.net> 
>>  Sent: 31/01/2017 12:56:56 am 
>>  To: dev@river.apache.org 
>>  Subject: Re: OSGi 
>>  Maybe you can help me out here by explaining how it is that execution context and
class visibility are both handled by OSGi bundles.  For example, one of my client applications
is a desktop environment.  It does service look up for all services registrations providing
a “serviceUI”.  It then integrates all of those services into a desktop view where the
UIs are running at the same time with each one imbedded in a JDesktopPane or a JTabbedPane
or a JFrame or JDialog.  There are callbacks from parts of that environment into my application
which in turn is interacting with the ServiceUI component.  You have AWT event threads which
are calling out, into the ServiceUIs and lots of other threads of execution which all, ultimately,
must have different class loading environments so that the ServiceUI components can know where
to load code from.  
>>  It’s exactly TCCL that allows them to know that based on all the other class loading
standards.  The ClassLoader is exactly the thing that all of them have in common if you include
OSGi bundles as well.  The important detail, is that if the TCCL is not used as new ClassLoaders
are created, then there is no context for those new ClassLoaders to reference, universally.
>>  The important details are:  
>>      1) The desktop application has to be able to prefer certain Entry classes which
define details that are presented to the user.  
>>      2) When the user double clicks on a services icon, or right clicks and selects
“Open in new Frame”, an async worker thread needs a TCCL pointing at the correct parent
class loader for the service’s URLClassLoader to reference so that the preferred classes
>>      3) Anytime that the AWT Event thread might be active inside of the services
UI implementation, it also needs to indicate the correct parent class loader if that UI component
causes other class loading to occur.  
>>      4) I am speaking specifically in the context of deferred class loading which
is controlled outside of the service discovery moment.  
>>>   On Jan 30, 2017, at 4:04 AM, Michał Kłeczek (XPro Sp. z o. o.) <michal.kleczek@xpro.biz>
>>>   What I think Jini designers did not realize is that class loading can be treated
exactly as any other capability provided by a (possibly remote) service.  
>>>   Once you realize that - it is possible to provide a kind of a "universal container
infrastructure" where different class loading implementations may co-exist in a single JVM.
>>  That’s precisely what ClassLoader is for.  TCCL is precisely to allow “some
class” to know what context to associate newly loaded classes with, so that in such an environment,
any code can load classes on behalf of some other code/context.  It doesn’t matter if it
is TCCL or some other class management scheme such as OSGi bundles.  We are talking about
the same detail, just implemented in a different way.  
>>>   What's more - these class loading implementations may be dynamic themselves
- ie. it is a service that provides the client with a way to load its own (proxy) classes.
>>>   In other words: "there not enough Jini in Jini itself”.  
>>  I am not sure I understand where the short coming is at then.  Maybe you can illustrate
with an example where TCCL fails to allow some piece of code to load classes on behalf of
another piece of code?  
>>  In my desktop application environment, there is a abstract class which is used by
each serviceUI to allow the desktop to know if it provides the ability to open into one of
the above mentioned JComponent subclasses..  That class is preferred and provided and resolved
using the codebase of the desktop client.  That class loading environment is then the place
where the service is finally resolved and classes created so that the proxy can be handed
to the serviceUI component which ultimately only partially resolves from the services codebase.
>>  It’s this class compatibility which needs to be lightweight.  
>>>   We have _all_ the required pieces in place:  
>>>   - dynamic code loading and execution (ClassLoaders),  
>>>   - security model and implementation that allows restricting rights of the downloaded
>>>   - and a serialization/deserialization which allows sending arbitrary data (and
yes - code too) over the wire.  
>>>   It is just the matter of glueing the pieces together.  
>>  Correct, but it’s a matter of class compatibility where a client environment has
to interact with a service and the serviceUI components where TCCL excels and providing the
ability to create class loaders with the correct parent context, for Java based code.  OSGi
introduces the opportunity for some extra bells and whistles.  But I don’t see that it can
completely eliminate the nature of TCCL and how it was intended to be used.  
>>>   Thanks,  
>>>   Michal  
>>>   Gregg Wonderly wrote:  
>>>>   <snip>  
>>>>   I am not an OSGi user.  I am not trying to be an OSGi opponent.  What I
am trying to say is that I consider all the commentary in those articles about TCCL not working
to be just inexperience and argument to try and justify a different position or interpretation
of what the real problem is.  
>>>>   The real problem is that there is not one “module” concept in Java
(another one is almost here in JDK 9/Jigsaw).  No one is working together on this, and OSGi
is solving problems in a small part of the world of software.   It works well for embedded,
static systems.  I think OSGi misses the mark on dynamic systems because of the piecemeal
loading and resolving of classes.  I am not sure that OSGi developers really understand everything
that Jini can do because of the choices made (and not made) in the design.  The people who
put Jini together had a great deal of years of experience piecing together systems which needed
to work well with a faster degree of variability and adaptation to the environment then what
most people seem to experience in their classes and work environments which are locked down
by extremely controlled distribution strategies which end up slowing development in an attempt
to control everything that doesn’t actually cause quality to suffer.  
>>>>   Gregg  

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