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From Peter Firmstone <j...@zeus.net.au>
Subject Re: TaskManager progress
Date Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:48:15 GMT
If immutable objects are being created and discarded frequently, the 
builder and it's immutable implementations need to be in the same 
package and be able to pass references to internal state via package 
private methods, the builder or immutable object implementations must 
not let internal state escape, and the builder can replace it's own pre 
set internal objects using client calls and defensive copies when 
required, the builder also has to have access to a protected static 
subroutine from the immutable object's class that gets used during 
construction to generate the hashcode which is final, it uses this to 
determine if an object already exists before creating it, it must then 
be able to pass in the objects to a package private method on the 
immutable object, identical to the parameters that would usually be 
passed to a constructor on the immutable object to determine if the 
pooled object is suitable.  All constructors on the immutable objects 
are package private.

Then if you're really keen and the immutable object needs to be 
serialized, you can instead serialize the builder, which builds an 
identical immutable object on the client platform.  But you must be 
careful to defensively copy objects during unmarshalling.  That way the 
internal state of the immutable object is never published.

If this seems like a lot of trouble to go to for immutability, it is, so 
it has to be something that will experience widespread use.

I've implemented something similar for PermissionGrant, but without the 
pooling or serialization, I don't think we'll have enough 
PermissionGrant's to make the complexity of pooling worthwhile.  There 
are 5 classes implementing PermissionGrant, in this case.

Cheers,

Peter.



Peter Firmstone wrote:
> Actually a problem I have, is I don't have access to the resources 
> required to performance test some of these implementations, as they 
> would be stressed under a massive cluster situation.
>
> The other assumption I make is something that performs well today, 
> might not tomorrow, due to the multi core revolution we have on our 
> hands.  This may turn out to be a flawed assumption.
>
> Generally how I like to code is, and this isn't related to your 
> situation, is if it makes sense to do so, I make immutable object 
> builder / factory's that are not threadsafe, I provide a method on the 
> immutable object for getting a new builder instance that has the state 
> of the immutable object pre set, which I can modify before building a 
> replacement immutable object.
>
> I might use one builder to generate many immutable objects, the 
> builder object is accessed only by one thread.
>
> The builder might internally utilise a static concurrent weak 
> reference hash pool of immutable objects, it knows the hashcode 
> generator the immutable object uses, so can pool the immutable 
> objects, saving memory, or it might create an immutable object, then 
> lookup it's hashcode in the pool, find a duplicate, then discard the 
> new object if equals(), returning the pool copy.  Pooling also speeds 
> up the equals() operator.
>
> The immutable objects then get used everywhere, without concern for 
> thread synchronization.  These work well with AtomicReferences where 
> the new state depends on the old.
>
> The immutability of the object could be easily abused by reflection, 
> but you can't be expected to protect against that! The immutable 
> object might be a container that holds some mutable objects that are 
> now effectively immutable.
>
> The immutable object can be represented by an interface, because the 
> client doesn't depend on a constructor, in which case you can 
> internally have any number of polymorphic implementations, which all 
> appear as a single type to the client, giving a very compact API.  The 
> pooling offsets memory consumption for immutable objects.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter.
>
> Peter Firmstone wrote:
>> I have a similar mindset to Gregg, memory and disk is relatively 
>> inexpensive these days, if I can avoid locks by using atomic 
>> operations and immutable objects or concurrent utilities, I'm happy 
>> since it's one less possible dead lock or live lock bug I haven't 
>> thought about.
>>
>> If updated state doesn't depend on previous state, I'll go for an 
>> immutable object with a volatile reference.  If the object is not 
>> immutable and it can be defensively copied, I do that before updating 
>> the volatile reference and I defensively copy it again before 
>> returning it to a caller.
>>
>> If updated state depends on previous state, I might use an immutable 
>> object with an AtomicReference, where the update is only made when no 
>> other update was received in the interim.  If I can, I try to make 
>> object's effectively immutable, with defensive copying.
>>
>> If internal accesor methods don't need to concern themselves with a 
>> reference update during a routine, I copy an object's reference 
>> rather than synchronize on it, the copy will still refer to the old 
>> object when the volatile reference is updated.  If the routine is in 
>> a loop, and I want to restart this if the reference is updated, I'll 
>> use while( a == b) (or something similar), where b is a reference to 
>> the object referred to by a until a is changed.
>>
>> I try to keep synchronized blocks as small as possible, not so much 
>> for performance, but for bugs, not even necessarily my own bugs but 
>> client code concurrency bugs.  In the synchronized block, I don't 
>> call objects which may be accessible from outside the object I'm 
>> calling from.  State that needs to be atomically updated, I group 
>> together using the same lock, I also consider using the 
>> ReadWriteLock, if reads will outnumber writes. If multiple objects 
>> must be updated atomically, I might group them together into an 
>> encapsulating object with the methods I need to make it atomic.  This 
>> is better than holding multiple locks.
>>
>> On some occasions I find a simple class that isn't threadsafe at all 
>> is the best approach, letting something else handle the concurrency 
>> or ensuring it's only used by one thread.
>>
>> For me it basically comes down to avoiding bugs first, followed by 
>> scale.
>>
>> Obviously memory consumption can be an impediment to scale, so there 
>> are occasions where this is the wrong approach, but it's a 
>> generalisation, to be taken with a grain of salt.
>>
>> If memory is an issue, there usually isn't much concurrency to be 
>> had, if that's the case then good old fashioned synchronization or 
>> none at all might be the best way to go.
>>
>> In that case, I might consider an interface, and separate 
>> implementations for different platforms, one for memory, the other 
>> for concurrency.
>>
>> It's true that concurrency is harder, people often forget to check 
>> the return value of putIfAbsent, on ConcurrentMap.
>>
>> Horses for courses I suppose, everyone has their style, you don't 
>> have to adopt mine, I'm just happy to have some help.  There's plenty 
>> of code in River that uses synchronized and has no issues.  You 
>> probably have enough experience to avoid the locking bugs by now, I'm 
>> happy with your approach.  It's probably more performant than mine;)  
>> Some concurrency utilities can chew some memory.
>>
>> Maybe it's a reflection of my debugging abilities ;)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>> Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>>> On 7/21/2010 12:58 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> When I write code of this nature, attempting to remove all 
>>>> contention, I
>>>> try
>>>> to list every "step" that changes the "view" of the world, and 
>>>> think about
>>>> how that "view" can be made atomic by using explicit ordering of 
>>>> statements
>>>> rather than synchronized{} blocks.  ...
>>>
>>> I would like to discuss how to approach performance improvement, and 
>>> especially scaling improvement. We seem to have different 
>>> philosophies, and I'm interested in understanding other people's 
>>> approaches to programming.
>>>
>>> I try to first find the really big wins, which are almost always 
>>> data structure and algorithm changes. That should result in code 
>>> that is efficient in terms of total CPU time and memory. During that 
>>> part of the process, I prefer to keep the concurrency design as 
>>> simple as possible, which in Java often means using synchronization 
>>> at a coarse level, such as synchronization on a TaskManager instance.
>>>
>>> Once that is done, I review the performance. If it is fast and 
>>> scalable I stop there. If that is not the case, I look for the 
>>> bottlenecks, and consider whether parallelism, or some other 
>>> strategy, will best improve them. Any increase in concurrency 
>>> complication has to be justified by a demonstrated improvement in 
>>> performance.
>>>
>>> My big picture objective is to find the simplest implementation that 
>>> meets the performance requirements (or cannot reasonably be made 
>>> significantly faster, if the requirement is just "make it fast"). I 
>>> value simplicity in concurrency design over simplicity in data 
>>> structures or algorithms for two reasons:
>>>
>>> 1. Making the code more parallel does nothing to reduce the total 
>>> resources is uses. Better algorithms, on the other hand, can 
>>> significantly reduce total resources.
>>>
>>> 2. Reasoning about data structures and algorithms is generally 
>>> easier than reasoning about concurrency.
>>>
>>> It sounds as though you are advocating almost the opposite approach 
>>> - aim for maximum concurrency from the start, without analysis or 
>>> measurement to see what it gains, or even having a baseline 
>>> implementation for comparison. Is that accurate? If so, could you 
>>> explain the thinking and objectives behind your approach? Or maybe 
>>> I'm misunderstanding, and you can clarify a bit?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Patricia
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


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