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From Wade Chandler <hwadechandler-apa...@yahoo.com>
Subject Re: check point (was Re: Split JavaSpaces and JINI)
Date Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:47:17 GMT
----- Original Message ----

> From: Niclas Hedhman <niclas@hedhman.org>
> To: river-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 9:24:12 AM
> Subject: Re: check point (was Re: Split JavaSpaces and JINI)
> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Jim Hurley wrote:
> > I don't think breaking River up into these subprojects will make
> > things easier, provide value, or further the overall interest in
> > the project and technology.
> I am sure that those are typical things that enough people in a group
> will never manage to agree upon...

True. What about the situation where you have a module system such as NB or Eclipse and certain
modules only work with different parts of the system. Instead of those modules having dependencies
upon other specific APIs, to limit what is found in a sub-projects API list, demonstrates
a simple case where it helps. Too, what about other standalone systems which may not need
dependencies upon the services themselves, and are just some kind of backend processors which
need limited APIs and interfaces to get their work done. Should one have to deploy all things
in multiple applications with unique classpaths just to get the benefits of those intefaces.
There are always many use cases, and yes of course one can write an Ant target to do these
things themselves for their projects, but having Jini in smaller sub-sets or in one big one
doesn't matter for the person with a large monolithic classpath.
> > This has been a very long thread, and I am concerned that
> > some may be tuning out due to its length and lack of
> > specificity and due diligence of actual proposals.  In the
> > interest of the project, I'd like to ask for posters to first read
> > through the specifications (available at:
> > 
> > or
> > 
> > and read through the code and structure.
> Done all of that. What's your point?

Yes, seems most who have been participating have read things; some obviously have not though.
We who have may have more to learn of course. Same with any API.

> > There is certainly plenty of work that we should do in the short
> > run, for example:
> >  * finalize the AR2 release
> >  * complete the Apache River project section, including:
> >     Documentation, Javadoc, etc
> >  * fix up the Apache incubator page:
> >      
> >  * really create a 'todo' list for new and interested developers,
> >     and communicate through the list and the "Get Involved" page
> >  * etc
> Please do... The current "noise" will not interfere with those plans.
> Make it happen.

Indeed. Many of us are members of different communities. Were I granted access to the web
resources I would do some things now. If you need credentials to allow that access or something
to get folks helping you out with those things you can just google for "Wade Chandler" and
NetBeans and you should find enough contributions to at least know I know my way around development
environments and communities. Now, code patches, I understand, and I'll be submitting some
along the way which someone can put in for me to towards committer status, but certain the
web pages need updated, and seems you guys need the help as they have been updated in a while
it seems.
> > I'm trying to change the tone and focus of the mail list dialog
> > with this email.  Please don't respond directly to it on the list - I don't
> > think it's healthy for the project and won't engage in a discussion that
> > won't further advance the project.
> Well, it is a lot more healthier than a silent community and no
> action. Pardon me, but your mail have a very "corporate tone", if you
> know what I mean... If you are not interested, don't read it... but
> please don't tell others to be quiet...
> IMHO, there are tons of small things that needs to be done. And a lot
> of that can be done without much code changes. My "user perspective"
> is perhaps only one of many (incorporate Jini technology into another
> open source project), but from where I am coming from Jini 2.x is hard
> to use, especially compared to maybe another 100 or so open source
> projects that I have crossed path with in a similar fashion. I happen
> to think he reason being that Jini comes from a corporate environment,
> which delivers software in a certain fashion. I also think that by
> stirring up the soup, I can create an "open development" evironment
> where things are less homogenous, has flaws here and there so itches
> can be scratched without breaking everything.
> Too bad you won't engage in discussions, but that is your right.

I'll agree the discussion on Entry not being in spaces etc has run its course, but there is
more to this entire discussion than that. We need some specific threads which deal with issues,
and more than one person has mentioned different APIs being in JARs albeit in different levels
etc, I think the interfaces don't necessarily need to reside with all the different implementation
things, and too I don't think all the services need to be in the same JAR. 

But, that is just a small part of the problem along with ironing out the build process. Now,
if other threads are started which need input, and the committers are just being silent because
us newbies are just making noise then I don't know what that says necessarily, but certainly
it isn't healthy, and if you don't want help that is fine, but not necessarily open source
or in the open spirit. I don't think anyone wants to work on some code or a project if it
seems they'll be beating their heads against walls to get anything
accepted, and thus the reason many ask and talk about ideas first. We all have limited resources,
and getting ideas ironed out a little first to make sure there are some supporters of concepts
is much better than wasting time on something everyone immediately hates.


Wade Chandler, CCE
Software Engineer and Developer, Certified Forensic Computer Examiner, NetBeans Dream Team
Member, and NetBeans Board Member

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