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From "Calum Shaw-Mackay" <calum.shawmac...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Drowning in the River
Date Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:49:33 GMT
Hi Mark-

> Some remarks inline, don't feel personally offended by any of them as
> they are not targetted or apply to you specifically. But your posting
> referred to some sentiments I felt the need for to react on.

Not offended at all, engaging discussion is good!

> Calum Shaw-Mackay wrote:
> > +1
> > All the way through. As evidence of this, please check the front page
> >
> > It hasn't been changed or updated since the project has been accepted.
>
> Nobody has commit privileges at this point in time. I agree it seems
> to take a while, but I don't think any of the 'microscopic issues' has
> been a roadblock here.

I see, that's fair enough then, but you see my point, that to some
(until your email, myself included) it appears that things have not
progressed.

> Also you don't have to be a committer to actually start helping out, so
> nobody should hesitate to start helping out in this area.

Well you know me, point me in the right direction, give me a kick and
off I go.....

> > At the moment any new blood that might be coming to the site, don't
> > get that warm welcoming feeling to the project. I wholeheartedly agree
> > with Dan here, it's not just the focusing on the detail, it's the
> > bickering over the detail.... I believe we have much bigger things to
>
> I hope we can prevent from accusing those who participated so far too
> much. I think the relative silence by most is far worse than the
> perceived irrelevant issues discussed by those who did participate.

Indeed, I think many of my points stem from a desire to see things
move forwards, not rapidly spin out of control, but to see something
which we can then disseminate to users both existing and potential.

> Some remarks on the indentation thread were funny so that has some value
> too (we also discovered there were more than 7 subscribers), and in the
> end it is a well known code issue that always results in a lot of
> troubles. So I thank Gregg for at least bringing it up before we start
> hacking the source. It gives Sun the ability to align this with the
> ServiceUI code (which has spaces) or the other way around. Or we do
> nothing about it but than at least we close the records on that issue as
> it has been discussed and comply or leave.

Again that's a fair point, although we need to bring it a close at
some point. Perhaps this may be because this is the dev mailing list
where discussion of this sort are expected

> >                             , like what are we going to do, at a high
> > level, to the user experience of the project and it's deliverables. I
>
> As I understand it during incubation users are not that important, I
> think it has been said already, but incubation is about showing we can
> work the Apache way and that we can create a healthy environment that
> attracts new developers.

I think one thing we need to get our heads around is that although
River is in incubation, Jini, and the starter kit, are not. This
brings some amount of expectation along with it that may require us to
push forward on some discussions that,  in some other incubated
projects, can be talked about and addressed much later on

> Don't get me wrong, users *are* important but I don't think how the
> world looks at us is our biggest problem at this point. I want to
> see we have and attract developers that are actually going to spend
> time on solving whatever comes on the roadmap. E.g. if we decide to
> split the JTSK there are people who going to do that in a reasonable
> time and taking care of all the rippling effects.


Agreed, but adoption of the technology is not dependent upon adoption
by developers but by users of other technology built upon Jini

> I have no problem if the Apache River project has massive amount of
> developers that want to work in a way that is in line with what the real
> world wants, if we can find out what that is, although I doubt whether
> we can succeed in that. I think that most of the people spending
> substantial amounts of time on this project now or in the future are
> doing it for their own little virtual world, whether that is because
> they are forced to do that by their boss or because they believe in
> their little world is not that relevant to me.

I see your point Mark, but we must take this opportunity to drive
forward adoption with both hands (in a controlled fashion of course)


> I hate to see those donating their time to be accused of not thinking
> about the world or users for that matter, or being busy with irrelevant
> things. So far there was plenty of opportunity to react on how to
> proceed from here, so I hope that ideas will emerge instead of affirming
> the things that are not going that smooth.

I'm not saying that these things are irrelevant, but there are other
things that are relevant also, and I think we need to think about
these things as well, especially as we progress towards defining a
roadmap. I think it would be a bad idea to consistently concentrate on
one particular area.

> Hoping not to have alienated anyone,


Not in the slightest, enjoying the discussion.

--Calum

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