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From Dan Creswell <...@dcrdev.demon.co.uk>
Subject Re: Drowning in the River
Date Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:36:49 GMT
Mark Brouwer wrote:
> Hi Calum,
> 
> Some remarks inline, don't feel personally offended by any of them as
> they are not targetted or apply to you specifically. But your posting
> referred to some sentiments I felt the need for to react on.
> 
> Calum Shaw-Mackay wrote:
>> +1
>> All the way through. As evidence of this, please check the front page
>>
>> It hasn't been changed or updated since the project has been accepted.
> 
> Nobody has commit privileges at this point in time. I agree it seems
> to take a while, but I don't think any of the 'microscopic issues' has
> been a roadblock here.
> 
> Also you don't have to be a committer to actually start helping out, so
> nobody should hesitate to start helping out in this area.
> 
>> At the moment any new blood that might be coming to the site, don't
>> get that warm welcoming feeling to the project. I wholeheartedly agree
>> with Dan here, it's not just the focusing on the detail, it's the
>> bickering over the detail.... I believe we have much bigger things to
> 
> I hope we can prevent from accusing those who participated so far too
> much. I think the relative silence by most is far worse than the
> perceived irrelevant issues discussed by those who did participate.
> 
>> think about than indentation
> 
> Some remarks on the indentation thread were funny so that has some value
> too (we also discovered there were more than 7 subscribers), and in the
> end it is a well known code issue that always results in a lot of
> troubles. So I thank Gregg for at least bringing it up before we start
> hacking the source. It gives Sun the ability to align this with the
> ServiceUI code (which has spaces) or the other way around. Or we do
> nothing about it but than at least we close the records on that issue as
> it has been discussed and comply or leave.
> 
>>                             , like what are we going to do, at a high
>> level, to the user experience of the project and it's deliverables. I
> 
> As I understand it during incubation users are not that important, I
> think it has been said already, but incubation is about showing we can
> work the Apache way and that we can create a healthy environment that
> attracts new developers.
> 

Okay, so do we think that developers will be attracted by fixes to
PreferredClassLoader or coding styles or debate about rules for checkins
or a collection of JIRA issues they can look at or.......

Will they be attracted because Jini is deemed cool, it's accessible,
there are compelling reasons to use it, there's a strong direction which
everyone can see benefit from, there are some serious challenges
outlined that people can contribute to etc?

Or maybe something else entirely?

> Don't get me wrong, users *are* important but I don't think how the
> world looks at us is our biggest problem at this point. I want to
> see we have and attract developers that are actually going to spend
> time on solving whatever comes on the roadmap. E.g. if we decide to
> split the JTSK there are people who going to do that in a reasonable
> time and taking care of all the rippling effects.
> 
> I have no problem if the Apache River project has massive amount of
> developers that want to work in a way that is in line with what the real
> world wants, if we can find out what that is, although I doubt whether
> we can succeed in that. I think that most of the people spending
> substantial amounts of time on this project now or in the future are
> doing it for their own little virtual world, whether that is because
> they are forced to do that by their boss or because they believe in
> their little world is not that relevant to me.
> 
> So 'users' are important, but I find committers more important. If a
> user doesn't agree with that, he can upgrade himself to contributer,
> and from there to a committer.
> 
> I hate to see those donating their time to be accused of not thinking
> about the world or users for that matter, or being busy with irrelevant
> things. So far there was plenty of opportunity to react on how to
> proceed from here, so I hope that ideas will emerge instead of affirming
> the things that are not going that smooth.
> 
> Hoping not to have alienated anyone,


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