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From Mark Brouwer <mark.brou...@cheiron.org>
Subject Re: Drowning in the River
Date Tue, 06 Feb 2007 12:04:24 GMT
Hi Calum,

Some remarks inline, don't feel personally offended by any of them as
they are not targetted or apply to you specifically. But your posting
referred to some sentiments I felt the need for to react on.

Calum Shaw-Mackay wrote:
> +1
> All the way through. As evidence of this, please check the front page
> 
> It hasn't been changed or updated since the project has been accepted.

Nobody has commit privileges at this point in time. I agree it seems
to take a while, but I don't think any of the 'microscopic issues' has
been a roadblock here.

Also you don't have to be a committer to actually start helping out, so 
nobody should hesitate to start helping out in this area.

> At the moment any new blood that might be coming to the site, don't
> get that warm welcoming feeling to the project. I wholeheartedly agree
> with Dan here, it's not just the focusing on the detail, it's the
> bickering over the detail.... I believe we have much bigger things to

I hope we can prevent from accusing those who participated so far too
much. I think the relative silence by most is far worse than the
perceived irrelevant issues discussed by those who did participate.

> think about than indentation

Some remarks on the indentation thread were funny so that has some value
too (we also discovered there were more than 7 subscribers), and in the
end it is a well known code issue that always results in a lot of
troubles. So I thank Gregg for at least bringing it up before we start
hacking the source. It gives Sun the ability to align this with the
ServiceUI code (which has spaces) or the other way around. Or we do
nothing about it but than at least we close the records on that issue as
it has been discussed and comply or leave.

>                             , like what are we going to do, at a high
> level, to the user experience of the project and it's deliverables. I

As I understand it during incubation users are not that important, I
think it has been said already, but incubation is about showing we can
work the Apache way and that we can create a healthy environment that
attracts new developers.

Don't get me wrong, users *are* important but I don't think how the
world looks at us is our biggest problem at this point. I want to
see we have and attract developers that are actually going to spend
time on solving whatever comes on the roadmap. E.g. if we decide to
split the JTSK there are people who going to do that in a reasonable
time and taking care of all the rippling effects.

I have no problem if the Apache River project has massive amount of
developers that want to work in a way that is in line with what the real
world wants, if we can find out what that is, although I doubt whether
we can succeed in that. I think that most of the people spending
substantial amounts of time on this project now or in the future are
doing it for their own little virtual world, whether that is because
they are forced to do that by their boss or because they believe in
their little world is not that relevant to me.

So 'users' are important, but I find committers more important. If a
user doesn't agree with that, he can upgrade himself to contributer,
and from there to a committer.

I hate to see those donating their time to be accused of not thinking
about the world or users for that matter, or being busy with irrelevant
things. So far there was plenty of opportunity to react on how to
proceed from here, so I hope that ideas will emerge instead of affirming
the things that are not going that smooth.

Hoping not to have alienated anyone,
-- 
Mark


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