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From Rob Godfrey <rob.j.godf...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Qpid Dispatch Router component
Date Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:09:44 GMT
On 10 October 2013 12:46, Gordon Sim <gsim@redhat.com> wrote:

> On 10/10/2013 10:58 AM, Rob Godfrey wrote:
>
>> I think the point of Qpid (vs. any other messaging
>> implementation at Apache or elsewhere) is to implement the AMQP
>> specification.
>>
>
> I have no disagreement when the AMQP specification is what is currently
> published.
>
> My concern is where that is defined to be an expanding, all-encompassing
> effort that ring fences whole areas of behaviour and sets itself up as the
> only legitimate avenue for exploration.
>

Do you believe that is what the OASIS TCs are doing?  If so in which areas?


>

Expanding beyond the current specification needs a more diverse source of
> ideas and a more open, transparent and collaborative process.
>
>
While I agree that a more open process is most definitely desirable, I
would argue that the OASIS TCs (sadly) currently have a much more diverse
membership than Qpid committers.  Also note that you do not need to be a
member of OASIS to comment on work going on there.  If you (or anyone else)
believe that the work going on in OASIS is misguided you should comment
there [1], not here.

While I may not be entirely happy with the OASIS process, the value in AMQP
is in standardisation.  If Qpid can be a place where multiple parties can
come together and work together then it may be a good place for de-facto
standards to emerge.


> [...]
>
>  I think that any such efforts at de-facto standardisation
>> must first reach out to other AMQP implementers and ensure there is a
>> broad
>> agreement on direction.  If the Qpid project can be a vehicle for doing
>> this, then great - however currently that is not how Qpid is operating and
>> I would be very concerned at us trying to claim any sort of work done
>> within Qpid as a "de-facto" standard.
>>
>
> Indeed and that of course is a straw man since no one is suggesting that
> we claim any such thing.
>
> However I would be very concerned if the OASIS TCs, with such limited
> representation, were enshrined as authorities over any and every aspect of
> work they choose to start.
>
> At present there is sadly no AMQP-wide community. While Qpid is far from
> perfect, it is at least, as an Apache project, founded on the  ethos of
> open, community driven collaboration. It has rules for governance that
> provide the means to correct deviations from that. Everything we do should
> be open and subject to debate and consensus.
>

Indeed... I would very much like to have an AMQP-wide community
established.  If Qpid can become the home of that then that is great,
however in order to facilitate that then I believe the first step would be
to be good AMQP citizens and work with and implement the emerging standards
that are currently being progressed (or be clear in our objections to said
work).

Historically Qpid has not been seen as a neutral place.  For better or
worse, there are a preponderance of committers from one organisation.  In
order to counter perceptions of a lack of neutrality I think work has to be
done to bring more people in before we try to sell ourselves as a neutral
venue for emerging standards.  Until we can actually demonstrate that Qpid
is such a place I think it is presumptuous of us to try to claim de-facto
standards for our work.  With greatest respect to those involved, that is
the way that leads to the next QMF.

I want users of Qpid to be assured that components or libraries that they
can get here will work interoperably with any AMQP implementation that
follows the standards.


>
> Reaching out to - and collaborating with - other implementations and
> communities is something I personally feel we must do more of in order to
> realise the promise behind AMQP. Starting those discussions here seems like
> one (though certainly not the only) reasonable way to begin however.
>
>
>
-- Rob

[1] https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/comments/index.php?wg_abbrev=amqp


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