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From Fraser Adams <fraser.ad...@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject Qpid AMQP 1.0 - How does it all hang together? - was Re: Qpid Dispatch Router component
Date Wed, 09 Oct 2013 18:22:02 GMT
Hey all,
The thread below on the dev list has prompted me to ask something that 
I've tentatively mentioned before, but am still a bit embarrassed to 
raise 'cause it probably makes me seem a bit stupid :-( here goes 
anyway.....


So I've kind of held off going down the AMQP 1.0 path partly due to lack 
of time, but also partly due to lack of understanding of how it "all 
hangs together", the new website helps a bit - but TBH I'm still left 
scratching my head somewhat.

I'll try to explain:

Now I know that Proton is intended to be a component usable beyond just 
the Qpid "product set", but there's a "protocol engine" and a "messenger 
API" and I'm not even that clear on the relationship between the two of 
those - for example could one use the protocol engine completely 
independently (is there an engine API?) or is the messenger API intended 
to be the lowest "unit of currency", what would be the benefit using the 
raw engine?

Then beyond that there's the relationship with say qpidd and 
qpid::messaging. Now I'm aware that when the Proton libraries are 
detected qpidd and qpid::messaging get built with Proton support, I'm 
"guessing" that in that case the relationship analogous to that of 
qpid::client where qpid::client was the low level AMQP speaking API and 
qpid::messaging provides a higher level abstraction, so I *think* that's 
the relationship with Proton there - but I'm not sure? Is the proton API 
close to the AMQP 1.0 specification in say the way that qpid::client was?


But then there's more nuance, so I'm aware that with AMQP 1.0 there's a 
more peer-to-peer relationship and indeed the Proton tests seem to have 
msgr-recv and msgr-send talking directly to each other without a broker. 
So that leads me to ask the question what's the relationship with the 
broker - in other words what services are provided in messenger, what 
are enhanced in qpid::messaging and what are layered on top of that via 
the broker (and how does the addressing and routing work?).

Some examples of where I'm befuddled include how does subscription work 
at a peer to peer level? For example I think that exchange nodes are 
only something I've heard discussed in the context of qpidd and 
similarly I think the same is true of message selectors, so does Proton 
only provide low level network connectivity and data serialisation (and 
possibly single client queue) and all the other stuff needed for 
connecting a network of clients are part of the broker services.

I suppose what I'm really asking is what "services" are provided at each 
"layer" of the Qpid "stack" - clearly you can do useful stuff with just 
Proton - but what stuff and what are the limits? What would you then get 
from qpid:messaging and what then does the broker throw into the mix. 
Are there any diagrams that illustrate this sort of relationship?

The dispatch router adds yet more nuance into the mix. From my (limited) 
understanding it seems to offer at least some of the same services as 
the broker - but I'm not quite sure what. In my case I've got a very 
large federated topology and I have lots of left hand systems feeding in 
to fewer systems towards the right. Given that it's only on the right 
hand side broker that I have lots of consumers doing complex 
subscriptions and the rest of the brokers are employing fairly simple 
queue routes I'm thinking that the dispatch router could ultimately be 
something to "tidy up" the left hand side of my system - but I'm not 
quite sure.

Apologies if these seem silly questions, I'm sure that the answers are 
obvious to those who've been involved at the architectural stages, but 
ultimately from my perspective the overall holistic architecture isn't 
totally clear.

Even at a basic level I've not actually noticed anything in the 
programming book 
http://qpid.apache.org/releases/qpid-0.24/programming/book/index.html 
that seems to mention even how to connect via AMQP 1.0 vice 0.10. I 
think that it has been mentioned on the mailing list by Gordon so I'm 
sure I could dig the info out, but is it missing from the docs (or am I 
just not looking hard enough). On a similar note for Proton the 
msgr-send and msgr-recv examples are fine as far as it goes, but I'm 
thinking that to figure out how to do anything more complex my best bet 
is likely to be to "reverse engineer" the qpid::messaging bindings - I 
can't see anything obvious for how to send a map for example. I'm 
guessing that Proton is just as erm "nuanced" as qpid::client, so really 
powerful and flexible, but you have to know what you're doing to get the 
best (say performance) out of it, the API documentation looks pretty 
decent to be fair but I'm not sure that's enough to help me drive it 
really effectively.

On top of that there seems to be a growing number of JMS clients, 
there's the original AMQP 0.10, there's an AMQP 1.0 one in the main Qpid 
tree and there's a separate Proton based AMQP 1.0 one that's a separate 
component (in a similar vein to Proton). I can see that the increased 
modularisation is a good thing and I assume that at some point the 
original AMQP 1.0 JMS client will be deprecated in favour of the Proton 
based one, but at the moment it's all a bit confusing without anything 
that describes the relationship between then. I'm gleaning what little 
knowledge I have out of a range of threads on the mailing list and I've 
probably missed something.

I'm sorry if this comes across in any way as critical in email form, 
it's really not intended to, I'm just keen to finally make a proper 
start on my AMQP 1.0 journey and to be honest I feel a little out of my 
depth at the moment :-(

Blame Ted for prompting me to write this ;->

Cheers,
Frase


On 09/10/13 17:20, Rob Godfrey wrote:
> Hi Ted,
>
> I think before we make this a full sub project, it would be good to have
> clarity on exactly the proposed scope of Dispatch, how it is expected to
> interact with other components within Qpid, or within wider AMQP networks.
> I think in retrospect we didn't do this clearly enough with Proton (for
> example).
>
> Moreover I would personally like to understand which AMQP standards it will
> be looking to implement, and which not.  For instance I notice this line in
> the docs for Dispatch:
>
> *Address**Description* /_local/agentThe management agent on the attached
> router/container. This address would be used by an endpoint that is a
> management client/console/tool wishing to access management data from the
> attached container.
> Which doesn't seem to conform with the proposed management specification
> for AMQP, nor does the document make any mention of how dispatch is to be
> managed.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Rob
>
>
> On 9 October 2013 17:22, Ted Ross <tross@redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> The AMQP Router project (Qpid Dispatch, announced previously on the user
>> list) is gaining in community interest and is nearing the point where a
>> first release is appropriate. In preparation for a release, I proposethat
>> this sub-project follow the lead of both Proton and the AMQP1.0 JMS
>> projects. This involves:
>>
>> 1. Moving the code from qpid/extras to
>>     http://svn.apache.org/repos/**asf/qpid/dispatch<http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/qpid/dispatch>
>> ,
>> 2. Requesting, by vote, the creation of a JIRA project to track its
>>     issues and releases.
>>
>> Unless there are objections, I will move forward with the above two tasks.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -Ted
>>
>>


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