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From Tetsuya Kitahata <tets...@apache.org>
Subject Re: new forrest live site
Date Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:10:13 GMT

Has Erik (Out-Of-Box guy) understood the simplicity of POI installation?

Marketers' eyes are more shrewd than those of developers.

Sincerely,

-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:56:58 -0400
(Subject: Re: new forrest live site)
"Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@apache.org> wrote:

> Present method for installing POI:
> 
> Unzip POI distro
> Copy Jar file(s) into your WEB-INF/lib or wherever you keep your jar files.
> 
> -Andy
> 
> On 7/17/03 5:49 PM, "Glen Stampoultzis" <gstamp@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Yes but also it's a "smell".  If things are so hard to install that you
> > need to get someone else to do that hard work then perhaps they need to be
> > simplified.
> > 
> > -- Glen
> > 
> > At 12:03 AM 18/07/2003, you wrote:
> >> Personally I don't care for this.  It abstracts the user from the community
> >> too much.
> >> 
> >> On 7/17/03 9:47 AM, "Tetsuya Kitahata" <tetsuya@apache.org> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Beutifully Designed, High-Quality Products can be 'included in
> >>> Out-of-the-Box 2.1' :D
> >>> 
> >>> cf. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/elsewhere.html#20030715.1
> >>> 
> >>> Sincerely,
> >>> 
> >>> -- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
> >>> 
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> 
> >>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:18:52 -0400
> >>> (Subject: Re: new forrest live site)
> >>> "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@apache.org> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Tetsuya,
> >>>> 
> >>>> After being here for awhile you get a certain cynicism about what that
> >> crowd
> >>>> promises versus delivers.  I'd rather have something we maintain that
> >> WORKS
> >>>> and we can fix than something they maintain that is always broken..
> >>>> 
> >>>> Avalon culture: its beautifully designed if you can figure it out...it
> >>>> throws null pointers on launch.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Velocity culture: its ugly and dirty...it also works.
> >>>> 
> >>>> POI culture: beautiful design, great unit tests, good
> >> documentation...we'll
> >>>> optimize next release ;-)
> >>>> 
> >>>> -Andy
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 7/17/03 9:03 AM, "Tetsuya Kitahata" <tetsuya@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I completely agree with the things when poi-build used Centipede.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> For me (translator), it was a pain, too. PAIN PAIN PAIN!!
> >>>>> I had to learn how to deal with Anakia (Velocity and Ant, XSLT),
Maven
> >>>>> and Centipede. Unbelievable!  ... Jakarta is missing *consistency*
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> But, imagine. All the avalon, xml. ws-projects are using forrest
and
> >>>>> forrest bot.  ... If we fail building the site and it is due to
the
> >>>>> bugs of forrest, all the xml, ws, incubator-sites also fail buiding
the
> >>>>> sites!! We do not have to investigate the root of the *evil* ! :D
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Simple.... I love these kind of simpleness and smartness.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> -- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:46:38 -0400
> >>>>> (Subject: Re: new forrest live site)
> >>>>> "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> If he follows through which isn't a given.  You're taking this
as a
> >> single
> >>>>>> case.  I'm thinking the next time...and the time after than...and
3
> >> weeks
> >>>>>> after that ;-)
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Big pain.  Drives me nuts.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On 7/17/03 8:45 AM, "Tetsuya Kitahata" <tetsuya@apache.org>
wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Sorry, Andy. I could not understand what drove you nuts.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I think things will be very simple. Jeff offered us the
patches for it,
> >>>>>>> and we can accept them. So, we can build the poi website
as well as
> >>>>>>> all of the xml.apache.org sites and incubator, etc.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> For me, this seems very simple.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> -- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:35:42 -0400
> >>>>>>> (Subject: Re: new forrest live site)
> >>>>>>> "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Man this drives me nuts.  That¹s why I didn't want
to use forrest.
> >>>>>>>> Lessons
> >>>>>>>> learned from Centipede: the more dependencies your build
has the more
> >>>>>>>> often
> >>>>>>>> it breaks.  $20 says they never really make it to 1.0.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> You wonder why I constantly ask "do we need this dependency"
when
> >> someone
> >>>>>>>> tries it?  Because its a PAIN IN THE BUTT to manage
> >> dependencies.  Every
> >>>>>>>> dependency adds a brittle link.  I like POI to stay
simple and
> >> layer the
> >>>>>>>> dependencies on top of it rather than under it.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> -Andy



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