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From Greg Brown <gkbr...@mac.com>
Subject Re: Why new toolkit? was Re: absence
Date Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:17:22 GMT
Hi Josh,

I'll second that. You have done some great stuff. The Pivot community would undoubtedly benefit
much from your involvement.  :-)


On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Superstring Media wrote:

> Hi Josh Marinacci,
> Yes, the toolkit you described below is necessary, where can I see/get Bedrock?
> Also, please consider joining forces with Apache Pivot. Pivot is a RIA toolkit in the
same vein as Flex/Silverlight. Since I can not afford to wait until 2011 Q3 for JavaFX I have
had a close look at Pivot, it is substantial and I am very pleased. It includes a retained
scenegraph in addition to immediate Java2D rendering, a powerful declarative script system,
a ton of controls, skinning and much more.
> I really think that Leonardo and Pivot should work together. its time to make the Java
UI and RIA space strong (and unified) again!
> http://leonardosketch.org
> http://pivot.apache.org/index.html
> United we stand stronger,
> Thom
> On 2010-09-28, at 12:09 PM, Josh Marinacci wrote:
>> On Sep 27, 2010, at 12:17 AM, Michael Zucchi wrote:
>>> Hi Josh,
>>> On 26 September 2010 23:55, Josh Marinacci <joshua@marinacci.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi guys. I'm sorry I haven't been around to answer questions or work on the
next release. I've had a lot of travel lately for Palm (all very good stuff), which has kept
me pretty busy.  On the upside I've had the chance to put Leonardo and it's yet-to-be-named
UI toolkit in from of a lot of great people.  I'll be back home today and ready to dive back
into Leonardo this week.
>>> I'm curious as to why you're writing your own toolkit.  After having
>>> used a few other toolkits (gtk+, wpf, older stuff), swing isn't really
>>> all that bad.  And even if it wasn't that hot it'll still take a hell
>>> of an effort to get something which is complete enough to write a GUI
>>> heavy application with.  It made some sense for The Gimp to write
>>> their own toolkit, but the world is very different now and it just
>>> seems like such a large amount of redundant effort when there is quite
>>> a lot of other (possibly more interesting) stuff to work on.
>> That is an excellent question.  
>> In the short term I started writing a new toolkit because I couldn't get Swing and
JavaFX to do what I wanted for Leonardo. Long term, it's about freedom. Both technical and
legal freedom.  We need the technical freedom to mix graphics with components, mix 2d with
3d, to skin our gui's with proper CSS, and more.  We also need legal freedom. The new JavaFX
2.0 (once released in a year) actually sounds pretty similar to my plans for this toolkit.
The major difference is that mine is BSD, whereas Oracle's cannot be redistributed and runs
only on Sun's VM.  My toolkit (currently called Bedrock), gives you the freedom to run it
anywhere you want, including bundling it with an alternative JVM like GCJ, Kaffe/Harmony,
or Avian. You could event embed it into a phone.  JavaFX, sadly, still does not let you do
>> I want to clarify that this toolkit isn't truly new. Everything in it is straight
forward and not innovative. My goal was to take the best ideas of UI toolkits from the past
20 years and put them into a single library without any backwards compatibility concerns.
 The innovation is in the choosing and bundling, not the core concepts.  My goal is for developers
to be able to create desktop apps that look and perform so well that end users will never
know they are written in Java.
>> In terms of time to build it, I've done it entirely by myself over the past few months.
It wasn't as hard as I expected, though that partly stems from having worked on the Swing
and JavaFX teams for five years.  Once the project is open I hope to get more contributors
to polish it up and push it forward with new stuff.
>>>> BTW, any feature requests for the next beta?
>>> Having 'delete' as the first and usually-automatically-selected item
>>> in the context menu isn't too hot, I kept deleting stuff before I
>>> realised what was even happening.  Also the transparency on the popup
>>> context boxes is too transparent.  e.g. you can't read the black
>>> writing if it opens up over a black object.  Same with the red spline
>>> handlers over a red object.
>> Great feedback. Keep it coming. Thanks!
>> - j
>>> Cheers,
>>> Michael
>> Blasting forth in three part harmony!

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