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From "Ihnen, David" <dih...@amazon.com>
Subject RE: Why people not using mod_perl
Date Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:14:19 GMT
Rather than develop and contribute the community the ideas used in integrating (IDE-app server-version
store-job management) for the perl environment… you stop using perl for that.

This is *exactly* why people are not using mod_perl – perl lacks the investment given to
these big projects that people ARE investing in with the java technology.

There is nothing magical about java applied to this integration – perl could it it as well
(or better, given lessons learned from the earlier take).

Sorry if I sound a bit bitter, but this lack of investment in my favored technology frustrates
me something fierce.  You and your business/company may have the clout after 10 years of building
large critical systems to have the resources to invest in actually DOING this, and you would
rather move to java.

(not that it’s the only reason to move to java, but it sounds like it’s the fallover difference)

Sigh.

David


From: Steven Siebert [mailto:smsiebe@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:15 PM
To: Jeff Nokes
Cc: Brad Van Sickle; mod_perl list
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

I would also add, in addition to the frameworks, the availability of tools such as Netbeans
and Eclipse IDE's are unmatched in the perl domain.  These IDE's provide many high-level conveniences
for enterprise developers, most notably in the realm of SOA (such as graphical building of
BPEL and CEP).

After nearly 10 years building and maintaining a critical government system, we are sadly
migrating away from mod_perl to a J2EE based solution due to the success and growth of our
mod_perl-based system.  mod_perl and MySQL has served as well when we were taking on medium-to-large
loads...however, as we are growing to a distributed (multi-site, multi-node) system, with
tie-ins to numerous internal and external business systems across the enterprise, with development
partners working at distributed factories...tools such as Netbeans and it's tight integration
with Glassfish, SVN, and Hudson make building at this level a lot more manageable.  I found
that mod_perl for large-scale web applications works great, and if necessary horizontal scaling
is achievable to sustain even more load.  However, when dealing with complex SOA architectures,
and the management of business workflows...the framework support and tools to accomplish this
just aren't there in perl.

Add to this Jeff's comment on the availability of high caliber perl engineers...we are almost
forced to make this decision.

We will continue to use mod_perl for other uses, such as our custom SCM/ALM system we built
over the years...but the main product is migrating.

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@yahoo.com<mailto:jeff_nokes@yahoo.com>>
wrote:
Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason?

BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5).  I may substitute the phrase "More
convenient" for "Easier" in #3.  I would also add ...

   #7)  How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology?

I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran
6 eBay sites on it.  Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com<http://worldofgood.ebay.com>,
global.ebay.com<http://global.ebay.com> (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com<http://dealfinder.ebay.com>,
etc.  In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box;
the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which
adds up at a place like eBay).


________________________________
From: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@gmail.com<mailto:bvs7085@gmail.com>>
To: mod_perl list <modperl@perl.apache.org<mailto:modperl@perl.apache.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl



This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java,
.net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications.  I'd like to get
into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages.

I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot
of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based.

The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are:

1) Speed - I don't buy this at all
2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense.  Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you
stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible
for adhereing to it.  All of that is inherent in Java.  It also helps that Java has OO built
in.
3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true.
4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid
5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise
level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... )
6) Support

A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by
*insert hot new technology of the week here*  which is a total shame.  I've worked with a
lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps,
which is probably what most of us work on.  But I'm very interested to know at what point
(if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning
point.   Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?





Phil Carmody wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov <ichudov@gmail.com><mailto:ichudov@gmail.com>
wrote:



My site algebra.com<http://algebra.com> is about 80,000

lines of mod_perl code.



I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown

perl modules, about five years ago.







It uses a database, image generation modules, a big

mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows

work", unlike popular third party packages), etc.





All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy







due to math formulae.



I can say two things:



1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or

so



2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still

very maintainable and understandable (to me).









In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?



e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia








  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)



faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε



an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N



Pollard's p − 1 algorithm



Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.








Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential
Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.



Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factoredâ€








v • d • e



AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer
·

 Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen
· Miller–Rabin · Trial division



Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization









CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 ·
QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial
division · Shor's



Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean
· Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular
exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli












Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.



Phil













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